A technical question about Divine Soul Sorcerers

[jaelis]

Sorcerers are the D&D equivalent of X-men. They are born divine/draconic/wild /stormy/shadowy and as they mature learn to control their powers by channelling them into spells.

That is how I would interpret it too. But another player or DM might have a different story. Certainly sorcs don’t have to be born with power, it could be acquired in some mystic event or ritual. I have a hard time seeing how you could acquire power before the source of the power is established, but again it is not something the rules address.

 

[TwoSix]

Edit: Also, I hadn't realized they gained access to an *entire spell list*.... that's... huge. I'm going to have to think about this, there could be some crazy consequences.

There isn't. Believe me, I've tried.

 

[MoonSong]

That would seem to be a strict interpretation of the rule... but it's only at level 1, so you'll be able to replace all that soon enough anyway, I wouldn't worry about it.

Edit: Also, I hadn't realized they gained access to an *entire spell list*.... that's... huge. I'm going to have to think about this, there could be some crazy consequences.

The craziest is having access to silence. Silence + subtle spell means shutting down enemy casters while still being able to cast. -You run out of sorcery points quite quickly though-. It also means you can counter the negative effects of knock -assuming your DM rules in your favor-. And that's it.

The cleric and sorcerer lists share a lot of spells -I forgot the exact numbers- and the cleric list also shares some spells with the wizard list that sorcerers just plain don't get for no reason whatsoever. And then there's Domains that have a lot of spells already in the sorcerer list, so there aren't many other hidden combos. Also a Divine Soul can have a maximum of 17 spells at high level -a cleric can have that much by 6th level- so there isn't a lot of room to make cray combos anyway.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

That would seem to be a strict interpretation of the rule... but it's only at level 1, so you'll be able to replace all that soon enough anyway, I wouldn't worry about it.

Edit: Also, I hadn't realized they gained access to an *entire spell list*.... that's... huge. I'm going to have to think about this, there could be some crazy consequences.

A lot of people complain they can't take any utility spells now because of the "list of spells that a sorcerer has to take" takes up all the sorcerer's spells known, so getting a bunch more utility spells (which is one of the two areas that this really opens up) doesn't seem helpful, unless "I can't take any utility spells for my dragon sorcerer, but I totally can for my divine soul sorcerer" makes sense. The other area is summoning, which you can be as good as a cleric or much better (depending on how the DM interprets twin spell and conjure celestial/planar ally), which is an area that non-divine soul sorcerers are lacking in.

 

[TwoSix]

A lot of people complain they can't take any utility spells now because of the "list of spells that a sorcerer has to take" takes up all the sorcerer's spells known, so getting a bunch more utility spells (which is one of the two areas that this really opens up) doesn't seem helpful, unless "I can't take any utility spells for my dragon sorcerer, but I totally can for my divine soul sorcerer" makes sense. The other area is summoning, which you can be as good as a cleric or much better (depending on how the DM interprets twin spell and conjure celestial/planar ally), which is an area that non-divine soul sorcerers are lacking in.

People wildly overestimate the number of spells you "need" to take, unless you're absolutely the only caster in the party. And even then, you can make do.

 

[Arial Black]

That would seem to be a strict interpretation of the rule... but it's only at level 1, so you'll be able to replace all that soon enough anyway, I wouldn't worry about it.

Edit: Also, I hadn't realized they gained access to an *entire spell list*.... that's... huge. I'm going to have to think about this, there could be some crazy consequences.

It might seem OP, but you'll soon realise that it's not an issue.

It would be an issue for a prepared caster, who just doubled the range of spells to choose to prepare from each morning, but for a class with a (small) fixed number of spells known, once those spells are chosen then you are stuck with them the whole level, and can only change one on each level up.

So a 1st level sorcerer gets 2 spells from the sorcerer list. A divine soul gets 2 spells from a larger pool, but the fact that the available pool was larger makes no difference in play; you've still got just 2 spells.

This will not break your game.

Giving classes like this more known spells (as opposed to the same number but from a wider range) is what could be OP. Divine Souls do get one more spell, but only one (from a list of either one or two, depending on alignment).

If they got an EXTRA set of known cleric spells in addition to their known sorcerer spells, THAT would be OP! If they could know 2 sorcerer spells AND 2 cleric spells (4 total at 1st), THAT would be OP!

 

[gyor]

I don't think the rules resolve this. Clearly your character "learns" those first two spells at some point. Like, when their sorcerous powers first reveal themselves. The question is, are you a divine soul at that point, or just a generic proto-sorcerer? If generic, then you would be limited to the regular sorc spell list. I would say you were a divine soul from the start, but I'd say that in general it is a DM call.

Levels one and two I think are generally concidered apprentice levels of a sort, which is why most classes don't pick their subclass at level one, but the Sorcerer does, which reinforces that being a Sorcerer is something you ARE not something you train for and the Subclass is as inherit to how you even have magic as the class itself which is true of all 1st level subclasses, so yes the first two spells you learn are as subject to subclass rules as any of your other spells because your ability to cast them and the subclass itself manifested at the same time.

 

[gyor]

It might seem OP, but you'll soon realise that it's not an issue.

It would be an issue for a prepared caster, who just doubled the range of spells to choose to prepare from each morning, but for a class with a (small) fixed number of spells known, once those spells are chosen then you are stuck with them the whole level, and can only change one on each level up.

So a 1st level sorcerer gets 2 spells from the sorcerer list. A divine soul gets 2 spells from a larger pool, but the fact that the available pool was larger makes no difference in play; you've still got just 2 spells.

This will not break your game.

Giving classes like this more known spells (as opposed to the same number but from a wider range) is what could be OP. Divine Souls do get one more spell, but only one (from a list of either one or two, depending on alignment).

If they got an EXTRA set of known cleric spells in addition to their known sorcerer spells, THAT would be OP! If they could know 2 sorcerer spells AND 2 cleric spells (4 total at 1st), THAT would be OP!

That one spell that a DS gets from Affinity can be retrained for any Cleric Spell (but not Sorcerer). So by the time you get access to 9th level spells, trade your original Affinity spell for a 9th level spell, say True Resurrection.

Btw if giving the Sorcerer more spells known is unbalanced then feats already do that. Feats like Ritual Caster most of all, but also Spellsniper, Magic Inniate, Drow High Magic, Fey Teleportation, and Wild Elf Magic increase your spells know, in the case of Ritual Casting Wizard nearly doubling it and granting access to spell not on the Sorcerer's spell list like find familiar and unseen servant, and potentially unlimited castings, which can be enchanced by metamagic.

I have High Elf build that is AL legal for DSS (Divine Soul Sorcerer) that includes Cantrip racial trait and the ritual casting wizard feat and the Fey teleportation which not only gives you misty step as a spell known, but one free use per short/long rest, and maybe later Magic Inniate, for potentially huge increase in spells know and the amount of spells castable.

I think Wizards have like 15 rituals? Fey Teleportation great 2nd level misty step spell for 16 spells not from your class/subclass, and Magic Inniate would give 1 first level spell and 2 cantrips, with your subrace granting a third. For a DSS that is 33 spells known and 9 cantrips. If you also took spell sniper that's 10 cantrips.

 

[Arial Black]

That one spell that a DS gets from Affinity can be retrained for any Cleric Spell (but not Sorcerer). So by the time you get access to 9th level spells, trade your original Affinity spell for a 9th level spell, say True Resurrection.

Why can it be retrained for a cleric spell but not a sorcerer spell? I'm AFB ATM.

Btw if giving the Sorcerer more spells known is unbalanced then feats already do that.

It could be unbalanced, if done without care for how much of an increase in power extra spells known gives.

For the spells known you get from feats, it costs a feat! A feat which could have instead given you something else.

For the spells you know because of your race, then the whole slew of abilities given by a race are already balanced against the abilities given by other races.

The Divine Soul sorcerer gets one more spell known, but that is their subclass ability, which is balanced against the abilities granted by other subclasses.

My comment about extra spells known could be OP was in regard to subclass design. If an idea for a subclass used the format of two extra spells of levels 1 to 5, like the lists in the cleric domains, all as EXTRA known spells, then that subclass would need to be re-written because that would be extremely unbalanced, compared to other subclasses. To make it balanced, that list of 10 spells would need to be extra spells which they can choose from, while leaving their number of spells known unchanged. Warlock patrons' spell lists work that way; they are balanced both because the number of spells known is unchanged, and each patron has their own list.

So when first noticing that Divine Soul sorcerers get both sorcerer AND cleric spell lists, you might get a moment of panic! You might have a knee-jerk urge to nerf it! Until you realise that the number of spells they know is unchanged by that extra list, while the subclass as a whole gives only one extra spell known, which is taken into account when balancing the whole subclass against other subclasses.

Ergo, this ability does not need to be nerfed.

 

[Warpiglet]

I don't think the rules resolve this. Clearly your character "learns" those first two spells at some point. Like, when their sorcerous powers first reveal themselves. The question is, are you a divine soul at that point, or just a generic proto-sorcerer? If generic, then you would be limited to the regular sorc spell list. I would say you were a divine soul from the start, but I'd say that in general it is a DM call.

I really think this is RAI. There is little to no value with a strict interpretation here unless it's an AL game (as was mentioned). I think I will plan for them being available from the start...