A Whirlwind Question

[FireLance]

Sorry, last time I checked the rules creatures around 5 levels below the level of the party are supposed to be worth earning some xp's. Mowing them down as easy as grass doesn't earn xp's.
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I think Whirlwind is just another example of power creep in 3E. When you have to throw creatures that are almost the same power level, individually, to challenge the party, the group is too powerful.

At least in the encounters the spellcasters had to use a lot of their spells, and then use a fair amount of healing.

I think it all depends on what you consider to be a "challenge".

From the perspective of the game, a "challenge" uses up party resources. These resources can be anything - spells, hit points, daily use class abilities, magic item charges, etc.

Just because the party hasn't lost hit points, it doesn't mean that the encounter wasn't a challenge, if the party used up spells, class abilities, etc. A party can be relatively uninjured and still low on resources because its spells, daily use abilities, etc. are almost used up. I was in such a situation once, and warned my fellow players that we should retreat to rest. They ignored me and the next encounter almost resulted in a TPK. :\

Similarly, just because the party defeats the opponents easily, it doesn't mean that the encounter wasn't a challenge, if the party used up spells, class abilities, got injured, etc. It seems to me that in order for your party to defeat the opponents easily, they did use a fair number of their resources - bardic music, buff spells, and possibly hit points as well.

I still don't see how people think great cleave does more damage.
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So Great Cleave is a lot more balanced in terms of damage done to NPC's.

Several people, including myself, see Great Cleave as one of the least useful feats in the game. Perhaps it is because the games that we play tend to feature fewer and more powerful opponents than more, weaker opponents. Ideally, of course, a game should feature both types of encounters.

Look at it in terms of spells. Games which feature fewer, but more powerful opponents would tend to favor spells that deal a large amount of damage to a single opponent like disintegrate. Games that feature more, but less powerful opponents would tend to favor spells that deal less damage to a larger number of creatures, like fireball. However, it doesn't mean that either spell is unbalanced.

Plus Whirlwind is worse than any mage with metamagicked spells, simply because a Whirlwind fighter can deal that damage all day long. Mages/sorcerors/spellcasters are limited to spells per day or charges.

Resource expenditure for fighter-types and other characters who can use their abilities an unlimited number of times per day is quite different from spellcasters and other characters whose abilities have daily use limits. The only real limitation is hit points, which is what they risk losing every time they get within range of a melee or ranged attack (whether or not the attack hits). They shouldn't be expected to have the same resource depletion curve as spellcasters.

So I'll keep being the stupid DM who is terribly unfair, and I'll also keep it easier to keep my players PC's challenged, and easier and more worthwhile for me to DM.

As long as you and your players are having fun, you're not doing anything wrong. I'm just hoping to persuade you that Whirlwind Attack isn't that bad in general, although it might not be right for your game.

 

[Darthjaye]

Bottom line in comparison of the two feats is this.

Both guys have bard song and haste cast on them. Both have Power attack as a feat

The WWa guy with a spiked chain takes a 5 foot step and hits a bunch of mooks for 2d4+2d6 (goblin bane)+6(assuming 18 str)+3(goblin bane weapon) points (assuming the theory that weapons spec. and most other damage bonuses don't apply). He then gets hit by upwards of 8 mooks and has taken none of them down.

The GC guy (let's assume a spiked chain here using the same bane weapon as well) takes a 5 foot step, hits one guy for 2d4+2d6+6+3+2(weapon specialization)+Power Attack (let's say a +5 to damage from PA) plus any other magical or spell bonuses (possibly even from a bard). First guy maxes out in a normal hit for 29. Second guy maxes out at 35+. Now two factors come into play here. If the bad guys have 30 hp's then he's dead and he cleaves into his 2nd opponent and has a similar chance of offing him. If not he gets a 2nd (and 3rd or so on depending on his level and Haste if cast on him while the first can't even use haste for this) on the first guy and a similar chance of taking him and another one two or more out of the fight.

I'm sorry, but if you've got 8 or more foes within 10 feet of you every dead one is one that doesn't hit you with a full attack. Which would you rather have 3 or more dead in a round or 8 or more who get wise to you once you've used your WWa and hit you in smaller groups or even back off and use ranged weapons to take you out?

 

[coyote6]

Don't forget, the GCer could be using a goblin-bane spiked chain as well, and threaten a few more than three of the whirlwinded goblins...

Goblin-bane bastard sword or greatsword w/Improved Critical (Greatsword), actually.

If Spiked Chain Man's prodigious threatened area takes up a good chunk of one end of the room, and every goon flees from him, then they may just end up altogether too close to the woman with the sword and Great Cleave. Chop down three with attack 1, five foot step and chop down a few more with attack 2.

But it wasn't the chain that did most of the softening up; it was the fireballs.

PS: The two dozen spell-throwing eldritch goblyns are quite dangerous enough, thank-you-very-much; so please, don't cast aspersions on the encounters' ability to make hit points, spell slots, and what-have-you disappear at the DMG-approved rate, at least not until you sit down at the table and have actual firsthand knowledge to judge by (and, incidentally, an actual stake in the game you are tacitly urging the GM to make Even Deadlier). If nothing else, it will help one avoid looking like one got stuck with the ring of jumping (to conclusions) after the last loot dispersal.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Don't forget, the GCer could be using a goblin-bane spiked chain as well, and threaten a few more than three of the whirlwinded goblins...

-Hyp.

Ah yes, the ubiquitous spiked chain. Surprisingly, I've never seen a PC use it; I tend not to think about it.

 

[FireLance]

PS: The two dozen spell-throwing eldritch goblyns are quite dangerous enough, thank-you-very-much; so please, don't cast aspersions on the encounters' ability to make hit points, spell slots, and what-have-you disappear at the DMG-approved rate, at least not until you sit down at the table and have actual firsthand knowledge to judge by (and, incidentally, an actual stake in the game you are tacitly urging the GM to make Even Deadlier). If nothing else, it will help one avoid looking like one got stuck with the ring of jumping (to conclusions) after the last loot dispersal.

From comments such as:

Sorry, last time I checked the rules creatures around 5 levels below the level of the party are supposed to be worth earning some xp's. Mowing them down as easy as grass doesn't earn xp's.

It appears that DM thought the encounters were easy, even though the players thought they were difficult. I foresee interesting times for the gaming group in the near future.

 

[Saeviomagy]

PS: The two dozen spell-throwing eldritch goblyns are quite dangerous enough, thank-you-very-much; so please, don't cast aspersions on the encounters' ability to make hit points, spell slots, and what-have-you disappear at the DMG-approved rate, at least not until you sit down at the table and have actual firsthand knowledge to judge by (and, incidentally, an actual stake in the game you are tacitly urging the GM to make Even Deadlier). If nothing else, it will help one avoid looking like one got stuck with the ring of jumping (to conclusions) after the last loot dispersal.

The only person doing so IS someone who was present - he seems to be doing his best to make it sound like the creatures went down with barely a fight.

It sounds like they were quite a fight. Which only weakens his case against WWA...

 

[werk]

Folks, please tone down the rhetoric. Thanks.

I'm going to stick by my statement that I don't think they are advancing the monsters correctly and that caused the issue.

What is the CR of a kobold that can cast wish 1/day?

C'mon, that's broken...

I understand wanting to do new things, especially so the players can't predict what's going on or find the easy solution, and I appreciate that the thread started was not put off by my comment.

I do appologize for saying that I thought the set up was stupid, I didn't think it would offend anyone, (we're all over 13, and stupid is a compliment at 13) but if it did, I'm greatly sorry. Let's call it unpredictable at best, which was the issue as far as I can tell.

 

[Coredump]

No, what's ridiculous is to make something up, and then complain that the stuff you made up is too weak.

You made it up! If it's too weak, make it stronger!

Don't blame the rules when you screw something up.

Well that has nothing to do with what I said... but go ahead and confuse the two if you want...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well that has nothing to do with what I said... but go ahead and confuse the two if you want...

Are you part of this discussion, or some other discussion I haven't read yet?

The issue is with goblin-things that, in order to make them tougher, were given house-ruled special abilities which ended up not working very well.

You then ranted about how you can't comprehend how someone - the poster above you - would dare suggest that just making up special abilities was somehow wrong.

That's not the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is with someone complaining that the rules don't work because something they made up isn't powerful enough. They didn't use the rules in place for making goblins tougher, they used something else. Then, they start blaming the rules - not their own made up stuff - because the goblins were too easy.

You don't see the problem with this line of reasoning?

 

[werk]

Rules...the DM's sword and shield.