A Whirlwind Question

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Y'know, this just bugs me. I can't understand the "rules are all important" mindset that many seem to have. I need to level up opponents the way they are "Supposed" to be? That is ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is to make something up, and then complain that the stuff you made up is too weak.

You made it up! If it's too weak, make it stronger!

Don't blame the rules when you screw something up.

 

[Darkness]

Folks, please tone down the rhetoric. Thanks.

 

[Treebore]

Sorry, last time I checked the rules creatures around 5 levels below the level of the party are supposed to be worth earning some xp's. Mowing them down as easy as grass doesn't earn xp's.

As for the rhetoric, I don't mind it. I am perfectly aware of how legitimate and useful it is.

I think Whirlwind is just another example of power creep in 3E. When you have to throw creatures that are almost the same power level, individually, to challenge the party, the group is too powerful.

At least in the encounters the spellcasters had to use a lot of their spells, and then use a fair amount of healing. Of course when they ran into the fire giants things got real ugly. Who essentially even got a surprise round on the party. OF course the Fire Giants were at the other end of the power spectrum. They had at least an AC of 23, about 140 HP's, and dealt 3d6+15 Damage with each attack, with a +20 full attack bonus. Kicked the parties butts until they started drinking potions of flying and got into the air.


I still don't see how people think great cleave does more damage. Say the average damage is 19 per hit. Say the target has 44 HP and the PC has two attacks per round. If they do above average damage, and hit both times they get a cleave with their second attack, which is 5 lower, so less likely to hit on the cleave attack. If they do average they will have to wait until their next round to get the cleave attack. The good thing about this is that it will be at their highest BAB for the Cleave. If they roll above average damage this round they may actually get to use their great cleave on their second target, but likely will be on their iterative attack by this time. So in this two rounds of combat they have gotten two cleaves and maybe even a great cleave, doing maybe 57 points of extra damage and taking down two enemies.

Meanwhile, lets say the whirlwind guy has just a sword, and has 4 NPC's around him, either attacking him or one of his buddies. He gets four attacks that round at his highest BAB. So unless he rolls badly (in the case of the player in my game) he will only miss on a 1 because of his high BAB. So in two rounds he will do an average of 152 Damage to all 4 of the NPCS, 38 HP to each. The Great Cleave has only done 133 HP's, but has taken down 2 of the opponents, assuming they didn't miss on any of the iterative attacks or rolled any 1's.

Anyway, I see the Whirlwind guy doing a lot more damage, and getting significantly worse as bonuses are added, and worse if he uses a reach weapon. So Great Cleave is a lot more balanced in terms of damage done to NPC's.

Plus Whirlwind is worse than any mage with metamagicked spells, simply because a Whirlwind fighter can deal that damage all day long. Mages/sorcerors/spellcasters are limited to spells per day or charges.

So yes, it is "bad" of me to take away feat bonuses to Whirlwind, but it is an overly powerful feat to begin with. So to be fair I guess I should add to my house rules that Whirlwind is not allowed. That will probably be fairest. Or they can live without the bonuses, and realize they will still be a damage dealing machine, even in comparison to the supposedly awesome Cleave/Great Cleave.

The only time I ever see Cleave/Great Cleave become awesome is after the mighty spellcaster has already softened up the enemy with fireballs, etc... Throw a Whirlwind fighter in the mix, and the Great Cleaves will never stop. Severe power escalations, which is exactly why a lot of DM's don't like DMing high level parties, it gets real hard, real fast, to keep them challenged.

So I'll keep being the stupid DM who is terribly unfair, and I'll also keep it easier to keep my players PC's challenged, and easier and more worthwhile for me to DM.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The only time I ever see Cleave/Great Cleave become awesome is after the mighty spellcaster has already softened up the enemy with fireballs, etc... Throw a Whirlwind fighter in the mix, and the Great Cleaves will never stop. Severe power escalations, which is exactly why a lot of DM's don't like DMing high level parties, it gets real hard, real fast, to keep them challenged.

You can't Cleave/Great Cleave when you Whirlwind.

 

[Darkness]

You can't Cleave/Great Cleave when you Whirlwind.

I think he meant that a WW fighter can help soften up the opposition for GC, not using WW and (G)C at once.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think he meant that a WW fighter can help soften up the opposition for GC, not using WW and (G)C at once.

Oh... well if so, then nevermind. That takes two rounds, though, and you have to hope that you don't kill people with the whirlwind. All in all, not that great a combo.

I'd like to say that WW is a much better feat for certain types of games. Sort of like how sneak attack is going to be better in certain games than others. I'm not against House Rulings that modify things so that the style of gameplay are more easily maintained, but I don't think this is a good way to go about it.

Perhaps a better solution would be to limit the number of attacks to the normal iterative number or something similar. However, be careful when doing so, because it might make the casters overshadow the warrior types, since this is one of only a few answers to multiple enemies that warrior types get.

 

[Darkness]

That takes two rounds, though

I think you'd probably use two characters. Otherwise, it not only takes 2+ rounds, but also a lot of feats (that you can't all use at once).

Right, it's probably more of a "tactic" you use more or less automatically if you happen to have characters with those feats around, rather than something you specifically take WWA or GC for.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sorry, last time I checked the rules creatures around 5 levels below the level of the party are supposed to be worth earning some xp's. Mowing them down as easy as grass doesn't earn xp's.

Each one is supposed to take some fraction of 20% of the party resources. Most of the time, especially when the monsters totally fail to use tactics, this will end up being almost zero. Occasionally a lucky crit will get through.

I think Whirlwind is just another example of power creep in 3E. When you have to throw creatures that are almost the same power level, individually, to challenge the party, the group is too powerful.

You totally don't understand the CR system. A SINGLE fighter at level 9 is a CR 9. A CR 9 encounter is supposed to take 20% of the resources of the party to defeat.

In short - CR 9 is not the same power level as an entire party. And if you keep using bad tactics with him, then you're cutting off a point or two in CR anyway.

At least in the encounters the spellcasters had to use a lot of their spells, and then use a fair amount of healing.

So you're saying that the low-level mooks used up party resources, just like they're supposed to.

I guess your comparison to mowing through them like grass was totally pointless then.

Of course when they ran into the fire giants things got real ugly. Who essentially even got a surprise round on the party. OF course the Fire Giants were at the other end of the power spectrum. They had at least an AC of 23, about 140 HP's, and dealt 3d6+15 Damage with each attack, with a +20 full attack bonus. Kicked the parties butts until they started drinking potions of flying and got into the air.

Don't see why that should help - then they just switch to throwing stuff... Assuming they're not on "charge the living blender and hope to make it through" mode.

Meanwhile, lets say the whirlwind guy has just a sword, and has 4 NPC's around him
...
So in two rounds he will do an average of 152 Damage to all 4 of the NPCS, 38 HP to each.

HERE IS YOUR PROBLEM. The whirlwind guy can, at best, 5' step to get into position before whirlwinding. At that point you're saying that it's a regular to have 4 guys within 5' of him? And that those guys STAY within 5' of him for further rounds?

Anyway, I see the Whirlwind guy doing a lot more damage, and getting significantly worse as bonuses are added, and worse if he uses a reach weapon. So Great Cleave is a lot more balanced in terms of damage done to NPC's.

Because for some reason the NPC's are morons who stay within 5' of someone with whirlwind. I'll agree that reach makes this a slightly more common tactic, but it's still not that great.

And what are those NPCs doing on their go? If the answer is "nothing, they're not effective melee combatants", then there's the problem. They're not effective melee combatants, and should never have been in melee in the first place.

Otherwise, I can really see mr spiked chain fighter expending a lot of resources (ie - hitpoints) to keep this up. I mean - just imagine if those guys are 5th level rogues? Or even if they just two-handed power attack their flanking bonus away.

Or, gasp, if one of them trips, grapples, disarms or sunders. My goodness - Mr whirlwind is suddenly a non-threat.

Plus Whirlwind is worse than any mage with metamagicked spells, simply because a Whirlwind fighter can deal that damage all day long. Mages/sorcerors/spellcasters are limited to spells per day or charges.

All day long, as long as he remains in combat with 4+ foes at a time and doesn't get killed. Mr mage is doing it from 400+ feet away...

The only time I ever see Cleave/Great Cleave become awesome is after the mighty spellcaster has already softened up the enemy with fireballs, etc... Throw a Whirlwind fighter in the mix, and the Great Cleaves will never stop. Severe power escalations, which is exactly why a lot of DM's don't like DMing high level parties, it gets real hard, real fast, to keep them challenged.

Well, if you insist on using NPC's who act like they're invited to a blender party at Mr Spiked-chain's house, yes. Otherwise cleave/great cleave has this nice advantage that you don't really need to set it up before you use it. You can charge, move etc etc and still potentially get that cleave.

WWA requires you to 5' step and no more. After the first one, the guy should basically not be able to use it effectively for most of the rest of the fight, unless he's fighting morons.

I swear - this is the first time I've heard the argument
"This tactic is too powerful because it lets people mow through low level mooks who don't use tactics with only a small expenditure in resources".

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think you'd probably use two characters. Otherwise, it not only takes 2+ rounds, but also a lot of feats (that you can't all use at once).

I considered that, but I think it wouldn't be the easiest thing to pull off. Well, for my players at least. You'd have to effectively switch places, or somehow be threatening the same enemies. The WW character and GC character could fairly easily threaten three of the same opponents, but more than that involves some interesting 5' steps, delayed actions, and already being next to each other.

Reconsidering it, though, it is a fairly nice strategy with a definate payoff. Better than I origionally gave it credit for.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The WW character and GC character could fairly easily threaten three of the same opponents, but more than that involves some interesting 5' steps, delayed actions, and already being next to each other.

Don't forget, the GCer could be using a goblin-bane spiked chain as well, and threaten a few more than three of the whirlwinded goblins...

-Hyp.