A Whirlwind Question

[Sledge]

Seeing as how Erde is a setting published by Troll Lord games it is entirely possible that this dm did not create the eldritch goblyns.

 

[Treebore]

No, I did not create the Eldritch Goblyns, just determined what their random powers were, selected from the hundreds of thousands of their species from which this mercenary type of unit was created.


Just to clarify. The battle did not take place with anyone using or having the Whirlwind feat. The discussion started because the chain fighter PC leveled up and was deciding their feat chain, go towards whirlwind, or something else.

Another thing I want to clarify, when I judge how powerful a feat is I look at it when it is at maximum potential for devastation. That way I don't get surprised, hopefully, later on down the road.

So is it possible for a spiked chain fighter to have an opponent in every square within reach? Yes. Is it possible that his enemies will stay within reach with hopes of overwhelming and cutting down the S-C fighter before they are slain? Yes. Especially if they are in an area, such as inside a keep, that limits the viability of using bows/crossbows.

Lets also not forget that a spike chain is a two handed weapon and is not a light weapon. Then consider the Power Attack rules for a two handed weapon. Way too powerful.

As for the player in question, I have agreed to allow "passive" bonus to add to Whirlwind, but active use feats, such as power attack, cannot be used. See, since he and I sat down and discussed how uber powerful whirlwind can make him if I were to allow "any bonus" to be added, he saw what I was saying, and agreed. Reluctantly, since he is a player and power for his PC is a good thing. But he has also DMed enough to see the power issue I have with the feat.

So we are cool with it.

 

[Daermon]

So we are cool with it.

Rock.

 

[Coredump]

Another thing I want to clarify, when I judge how powerful a feat is I look at it when it is at maximum potential for devastation. That way I don't get surprised, hopefully, later on down the road.

So is it possible for a spiked chain fighter to have an opponent in every square within reach? Yes. Is it possible that his enemies will stay within reach with hopes of overwhelming and cutting down the S-C fighter before they are slain? Yes. Especially if they are in an area, such as inside a keep, that limits the viability of using bows/crossbows.

No problem. But let me raise a couple of issues with you.

1. determine what is the power issue: In this case, Whirlwind attack? or Spiked chain? To me, spiked chain is more of a problem. I would be more inclined to nerf the combo instead of just the WWA. (ie, WWA only works in 5' radius, etc)

2. Determine how often the 'maximum' occurs: Lightning Bolt does 48d6 per level damage at its "maximum potential". But how often will you get that to happen? I understand the keep scenario, but I would wager that it would not happen nearly as often as you suspect. (but I could be wrong, and again, it is more of a problem with a chain weilder.)

3. How much benefit for change: In your example, they were already doing 24 pts of damage, the 3 more pionts from feats doesn't seem worth it to change the rules. For things like PA, remember it already has a trade-off. Many times, the added damage is offset by the penalty to hit. Off set as in you will do more damage by *not* using PA. (plus, if he used SChain two handed, he is giving up a bunch of attacks. If he uses it 2 handed, PA damage only affects teh primary hand, but the -tohit affects both.)

4. Remember what you are comparing: WWA is the 5th feat in a chain, and the other feats do not compliment it *at all*. Compare that to Cleave, which while maybe not as damaging at maximum, is only the second feat, and power attack *does* compliment it. So try comparing:
WWA vs. (power attack + Cleave + weap focus + Weap spec + combat reflexes)or..
WWA vs. (TWF + ITWF + GTWF + Weap finess + Imp Crit)

It is likely, combat reflexes will be more useful than WWA in such a close environment.
And if you want maximum potential, don't forget the cleave-mook-hit-BBEG (repeat) method.

I would be interested in your take on this. But it sounds like you are running a pretty fun campaign.... which is the point after-all.

Lets also not forget that a spike chain is a two handed weapon and is not a light weapon. Then consider the Power Attack rules for a two handed weapon. Way too powerful.

Just saw this. I touched on it earlier, but I will expand. (either this, or clean out my driveway...)
A Spiked Chain can be used as a two handed weapon, and you get the 2X PA bonus. But they you are *not* using both ends, and you give up all of the TWF benefits. (and for a time, those feats are 'wasted')
If you use the Spiked chain as two weapons, you get to use TWF, and multiple attacks, but then it is like you are using a medium and light weapons, so PA only does 1X and 0X damage added, but the penalties are still both there.

As for the player in question, I have agreed to allow "passive" bonus to add to Whirlwind, but active use feats, such as power attack, cannot be used.

I see your logic, but I still think that is backwards as for effectiveness. He can use the added damage that costs him nothing (weap spec), but not those that suffer a trade-off (PA)?

 

[Darthjaye]

That, and I'm not sure how you can add Weapon Specialization, but not allow things like Bard song, Prayer, or other similar bonuses. I'm not sure how they don't suddenly work with this attack. If they are in place before the feat is used, how do they suddenly become inert by using it?

 

[Treebore]

Darth J.,

Since feats don't really have a realistic way to work, they are essentially just accepted as "a part of the reality", I think separating them out from spells is just as logical as anything else in D&D.

I see your points Coredump,

Spike chain really does take Whirlwind over the top, but the chain isn't the only reach weapon in the game, but it is the best to also work with trip, etc...

So not only does the spiked chain work with Whirlwind, it also helps make feats like trip and disarm be a bit easier to pull off.

But what can of worms do you open by limiting or eliminating the spiked chain? More issues of "realism" are brought up.

Also your comments about the Power Attack Trade offs. You do realize that since spiked chain, and any (I think) of the reach weapons are two handed, or useable as such. SO with Power Attack they take the -5 to hit, but get double the bonus to damage. With whirlwind you are only allowed to do one attack per round, period. So the TWF trade-off is really a non-issue anyways.

Using the BAB and buffs the PC in question had a +18 to hit. Plus he did not/does not have every feat or spell in place to raise that even more. So he lowers his attack to +13 for a +10 to damage to every target he hits. So that 19 average goes to 29. Granted he now has a 30% miss chance instead of 5% (against the 19 AC), but the pay-off of the damage bonus makes this risk very worthwhile.

I agree the "worst case scenario" isn't going to happen often, especially if I "meta-DM" the NPC's to act accordingly, despite the fact they shouldn't know, and therefore behave, as if they know how deadly the fighter is.

So I think it is just best to tone down the Whirlwind before I let it bring down the house. So people may not like how I am doing this, but I bet I'll be less frustrated with challenging the PC's in my game. At least I know for a fact my level of frustration will be lower. For our game that is all that matters, right?

 

[Coredump]

I see your points Coredump,

yay, I love useful civil conversations....

Spike chain really does take Whirlwind over the top, but the chain isn't the only reach weapon in the game, but it is the best to also work with trip, etc...

No, but it is the only one that allows you to hit at 10 *and* 5 feet, which is what makes it SO useful in WWA.

So not only does the spiked chain work with Whirlwind, it also helps make feats like trip and disarm be a bit easier to pull off.

IMHO, spiked chain is more 'powerful' than WWA, for a number of reasons.

But what can of worms do you open by limiting or eliminating the spiked chain? More issues of "realism" are brought up.

I was not clear, I wouldn't necessarily eliminate it; just nerf the combo. (ex. SC can only WWA within 5'. Or, SC can WWA at 5' or 10', but not both.) If you looked at the effectiveness of WWA with a different style, it would not be nearly as powerful. WWA is an 'area of effect' attack. SC increases the area by 150%.

Also your comments about the Power Attack Trade offs. You do realize ...

Well, um... uh... my bad, that should have been obvious.

Using the BAB and buffs the PC in question had a +18 to hit.

Sure, I understand. But now you are fine tuning the encounter even more. Yes If you have a limited front engagement, the bad guys can't move well, and there are lots of buffs, and thus are easy to hit.... that makes WWA/PA a very potent combination.

. Granted he now has a 30% miss chance instead of 5% (against the 19 AC),

But now do the math if he needs an 11 instead. Now the -5 from PA cuts his damage output *in half*. So it is only really worth it if they are very easy, or very hard to hit.



But lets compare two spiked chain weilders. One takes as you are concerned.
PA+Combat Expertise+ Dodge+ Mobility+ Spring Attack+WWA That is 6 feats.

He will be *very* effective when surrounded by mooks that are very easy to hit

But what if he took

PA+cleave+TWF+ITWF+GTWF+combat reflexes.

He is not very effective ALL THE TIME. he gets tons of AoO's. Lets assume 11th level. So he goes from 3 to 6 attacks per round PLUS any from cleave PLUS any AoO. I wouldn't doubt it if he could average 7-8 attacks EVERY round. And when he is surrounded by mooks that are easy to hit, he will get even more from cleave..

How often do you think he will get 7-8 attacks from WWA?

So people may not like how I am doing this, but I bet I'll be less frustrated with challenging the PC's in my game. At least I know for a fact my level of frustration will be lower. For our game that is all that matters, right?

Hey, I am all about less frustration and fun games. But I bet WWA would not be all that impressive if you actually use it. Once in a while, sure. but a really well placed (aka lucky) fireball is also.

 

[beepeearr]

Spike chain really does take Whirlwind over the top, but the chain isn't the only reach weapon in the game, but it is the best to also work with trip, etc...

Yeah, but other reach weapons don't trheaten the squares adjacent to the user as well.

If anything is broken with WWA it would be it's use with a spiked chain, no other weapon gives a threaten space that large.

Personally, I've always hated the spike chain, simply the most broken weapon in the game. High damage, finessable, added utility for trips and disarm, and threatens it's entire reach. By the way, it's not normally a double Weapon (some posted above that it was). Personally, I always thought it should work just like the whip from 3.0 (don't like the new rules for whips either). In my games instead of the uber melee reach weapon, I counts it as a double weapon (added benefit, since I take away reach) that is kept in hand and can be thrown up to a maximum distance of 15 feet (10 if you are trying to throw both ends of the spiked chain, or if using the held end for melee attacks) and still adds the benefits for disarming and tripping (even when used as a range attack), but is not finessable (if they want to use dex to hit throw it, it will still add strength to damage, but will provoke an AoO).

Just my opinion. As far as Whirlwind attack being too powerful with active feats like power Attack, try playtesting it with a great sword instead of a spiked chain, and you problably won't find it as overpowering, powerful yes, but thats the point, thats why it requires expertise, dodge, spring attack, and mobility as well as Dex and Int 13, and BAB 4+. For a character to use WWA with Power Attack requires a character to have a 13+ in Intelligence, Dexterity, and Strength, and at least 6 feat slots used to achieve that potent combo.

 

[Coredump]

By the way, it's not normally a double Weapon (some posted above that it was). .

Well hell. I have *always* thought it was a double weapon. I have never been in a campaign that used one, but still..... man, ya learn new stuff all the time...

(treebore: that means I need to tweak my example to be within the rules, but the intent still stands.)

 

[Someone]

Using the BAB and buffs the PC in question had a +18 to hit. Plus he did not/does not have every feat or spell in place to raise that even more. So he lowers his attack to +13 for a +10 to damage to every target he hits. So that 19 average goes to 29. Granted he now has a 30% miss chance instead of 5% (against the 19 AC), but the pay-off of the damage bonus makes this risk very worthwhile.

Power attack is tricky. Let´s run the numbers you just posted:

Average 29*0,7=20.3 average damage per attack. (with 5 points of power attack)
Average 19*0,95=18,05 average damage per attack. (without power attack)

You just won 2 "real" points of damage. But averages of that kind only make sense when you attack a large number of times; in a whirwind scenario against many enemies you´d expect some very wounded goblyns, and some unhurt goblyns (with power attack) instead of a lot of moderately wounded goblyns ready to be great cleaved.