A workable fantasy economy?

Something to remember is that in the ancient world and middle ages employers were responsible for feeding their workers. So any wages you paid were in addition to the food. The food had to be commensurate with the workers' social status. You could feed lower class laborers on onions, cabbages and black bread. Your clerk had to be fed spiced meat and white bread. Apprentices lived with and were fed by their masters in return for their labor.

Also, the medieval economy was set up to prevent capitalism. Guilds existed to prevent a free market, which was seen as un-Christian. You couldn't make a economy-model product and sell it at a better price. You made the product that the guild said you could make, at the quality the guild insisted upon, and sold it at the price the guild set. You couldn't just decide when people worked or didn't. When the Church said it was a holy day, that meant your workers didn't work. No argument, and there were a lot of holy days. Loaning money at interest, any interest at all, was considered a serious sin. The clergy considered business and trade as inherently dishonorable. That's why at various times and places the Church forced urban non-Christians into being things like merchants, doctors, and lawyers, because following an honorable trade like barrel maker was a privilege for Christians only. The entire society's values were almost completely antithetical to those of modern free-market cultures.​
 

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Great stuff, Celebrim. Thanks. And thanks to everyone else for the comments. I also remember Expeditious Retreat Press's "Magical Medieval Society" had some good insights into medieval economics, though I can't find my copy of the pdf anymore. Alas.

As for number balancing, a secondary benefit of reducing monsters rather than upping PCs is that due to the way bonuses interact with the d20, if I reduce bonuses, it makes it easier for me to make use of higher or lower level foes without rendering one side ineffectual.

Also, if I increase the level bonus for PCs to 1/level instead of 1/2 levels, that skews skill checks and probably bumps damage a bit too high. I suppose I could just be slightly inconsistent, and make it 1/level for attacks and defenses, and 1/2 levels for skills and damage.

But anyway, that's house rules, and not the primary interest of this thread.


So let's say we start with Celebrim's figures and assume the following wealth levels:


  • Destitute. Less than 100 s.p. owned, 1 c.p. a day earning.
  • Low. 3000 s.p. owned, 1 s.p. a day earning. Mostly barter, less than 30 s.p. liquid.
  • Middle. 15000 s.p. owned, 5 s.p. a day earning. About 150 s.p. liquid.
  • Upper. 90000 s.p. owned, 20 s.p. a day earning. About 1000 s.p. liquid.
  • Wealthy. 100x Upper, or more.


With that as a baseline, how much would stuff cost? A day of simple food (vegetables, grains, no meat)? A sword? Armor? A horse? Miraculous magic?
 

Something to remember is that in the ancient world and middle ages employers were responsible for feeding their workers. So any wages you paid were in addition to the food. The food had to be commensurate with the workers' social status. You could feed lower class laborers on onions, cabbages and black bread. Your clerk had to be fed spiced meat and white bread. Apprentices lived with and were fed by their masters in return for their labor.

Also, the medieval economy was set up to prevent capitalism. Guilds existed to prevent a free market, which was seen as un-Christian. You couldn't make a economy-model product and sell it at a better price. You made the product that the guild said you could make, at the quality the guild insisted upon, and sold it at the price the guild set. You couldn't just decide when people worked or didn't. When the Church said it was a holy day, that meant your workers didn't work. No argument, and there were a lot of holy days. Loaning money at interest, any interest at all, was considered a serious sin. The clergy considered business and trade as inherently dishonorable. That's why at various times and places the Church forced urban non-Christians into being things like merchants, doctors, and lawyers, because following an honorable trade like barrel maker was a privilege for Christians only. The entire society's values were almost completely antithetical to those of modern free-market cultures.​

Excellent point.

I wonder how things would differ if we compared it to, say, high Greek or Roman times, or Persian, or Chinese? Considering that most people don't have the Christian church in their D&D settings, the influence of religion is a major wildcard.
 

Regarding stripping out +X items, there are guidelines in the DMG2 for doing that. IIRC, it basically comes down to giving the PCs a cumulative +1 bonus on attacks, damage rolls, and defenses at levels 2, 7, 12, 17, 22, and 27. Adjusting monster attacks and defenses to 1/2 level is not a good solution because it doesn't factor in level-based boosts to PC stats - unless you want to strip those out as well.

As regards economic realism, for me the trick is making semi-realistic prices work in-game. Full plate is a good example. If full plate - the kind of stuff knights wore in the late Medieval/early Renaissance era - is priced realistically, then its price will be so high as to make most armor and weapons trivially cheap by comparison. So then you have to ask: What happens to the PC who wants to start with full plate?

  • If PCs don't get to start with plate armor, then the paladin is kinda screwed.
  • If PCs start with enough money to buy plate armor, then everyone who wears light armor is going to be rolling in gold.
  • If PCs start out with "one suit of armor you're proficient in," then smart paladins will immediately sell their plate, buy scale, and be rolling in gold at the cost of a short-term -1 to AC.
One solution I've thought of is to redefine masterwork armor. Get rid of the silly names, and instead use the following:

Cloth armor
Normal: Normal clothes/unarmored
Masterwork: Silk [Mongol-style]

Leather armor
Normal: Soft leather
Masterwork: Masterwork leather*

Hide armor
Normal: Leather cuirass
Masterwork: Leather plate**

Chain armor
Normal: Ring mail
Masterwork: Mail hauberk

Scale armor
Normal: Brigandine
Masterwork: Lamellar

Plate armor
Normal: Breastplate
Masterwork: Full plate

[SIZE=-2]*Couldn't come up with an "expensive" version of a leather jerkin, so I punted on this. I thought about "leather and silk," but that sounded more like something you'd find in a high-class brothel.

**Essentially a suit of full plate, with all the shaping and crafting a suit of plate would have, but made from hardened leather instead of steel. I don't know if anyone actually wore such a thing, but it was the best "expensive hardened leather" I could think of. The problem is that D&D tries to make every type of armor a viable option, whereas in real life full plate was just better than anything else; if you could afford it, you were crazy not to wear it.

[/SIZE]EDIT: It occurs to me after some thought that the "one suit of armor you're proficient in" solution is maybe not as bad as I'm making it out to be. Yeah, you could sell your plate, buy scale, and have a lot of money, but would you? What would you buy with all that money that would be worth sacrificing a point of AC? Especially considering that you only get 20% of list price when selling, and scale armor, while cheaper than plate, would still be fairly pricey... this might be a worse problem in theory than in practice.
 
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Can I just point out that I am an economist (kinda; I have an economics degree, at least) and linguistics is a hobby of mine?

OK, thanks.
 

I mean, in the real world, a typical AK-47 might cost $500, whereas a +1 weapon costs 360 gp in D&D. I'm no gun nut, but I can't imagine a mercenary spending a million dollars (the equivalent of a +6 weapon) to buy a "really nifty AK-47," no matter how good it is.

Also keep in mind that equipment magnifies the natural talent of whose using it.

In the real world, you give Ak's to your regular guys, but special forces get night vision goggles, dragonscale armor, special weaponry, etc.

Adventurers are very much like special forces in this regard, so they get the good stuff.


Part of the trick of the economy is two fold:

1) How to handle magic that creates things? This has been greatly reduced in 4e, you know longer have spells that create permanent iron walls and the like. Rituals can be priced based on the real world cost.

2) Handling high level treasure. What do the players get at high levels as a reward...if anything? Scaling up treasure naturally causes economic issues...so are there other things you can provide them that don't directly effect the economy?
 

I'm curious.

How does one factor in the fact that magic items don't degrade over time?

A 1000 year old magic item found in a dusty crypt is STILL as potent as it was first made which doesn't apply to normal items.
 

[*]Destitute. Less than 100 s.p. owned, 1 c.p. a day earning.
[*]Low. 3000 s.p. owned, 1 s.p. a day earning. Mostly barter, less than 30 s.p. liquid.
[*]Middle. 15000 s.p. owned, 5 s.p. a day earning. About 150 s.p. liquid.
[*]Upper. 90000 s.p. owned, 20 s.p. a day earning. About 1000 s.p. liquid.
[*]Wealthy. 100x Upper, or more.
[/list]

With that as a baseline, how much would stuff cost?

Food costs about what you expect. Armor is mostly reasonably priced. In a typical price list, its weapons that are vastly overpriced. Since 1ed, the cost of adventuring gear has been inflated severely for balance reasons. A peasant may not have reason to buy a weapon and may not be legally able to do so, but all but the most destitute peasants could afford simple weapons if they felt the need.

A day of simple food (vegetables, grains, no meat)?

About 1 c.p., but it would be very simple indeed, basically bread, gruel or oatmeal, and a few lentils for most of the year. That may sound cheap, but keep in mind that the peasant family is probably making collectively 1-2 s.p. a day (not in coin, but in productive work) and that they might be feeding 8-12 'farmhands' (in the form of themselves and their children) in order to do it which drastically cuts into their profit. Not that children are bad. In fact, children are the basis of significant wealth and virtually all your social security. A large family of peasants (say the women has had 18 kids, of which 9 or more are still living) is all things being equal much wealthier than a small family, and a childless family or one with few surviving children (especially few or no surviving boys) is facing disaster because they lack the 'hands' to work much land and they'll have no one to care for them as they get older. If you have enough surviving children, and you have a good work ethic, you'll probably negoiate with your landlord for more land to work. This leads to overall improved societal productivity, which in turns leads to better survival rates. One of the reasons for the 'Dark Ages' was a population crash that led to severe labor shortages. By the Medieval period though, things are looking up, thanks to a combination of better weather, increased population, better technology, and the all important monestary system.


Depends significantly on the quality of the sword. An good sword might take a skilled craftsman a week to make (4-6 days of labor). If you recall, he's going to want 5 s.p. a day profit. As a rule of thumb, 2/3rds of the cost of anything is labor, so 30 s.p. - 45 s.p. A cheap 'mass-produced' sword a peasant mercenary might use however might be made in as little as a day or two, so 8-15 s.p. It won't stand up to hard use and may bend or break, but you can run someone through with one. The price go up almost limitlessly on the high end, not just because the best swords might take a month to make (masterwork quality), and the best smiths command higher wages, but because swords would be considered appropriate art items and could be decorated.

Swords are among the most expensive and difficult weapons to make. Most everything else would be significantly cheaper. Spears would be much more favored by peasants, as you don't need as high quality steel for a good sharp durable point.

Armor? A horse? Miraculous magic?

The general rule for manufactured goods is that if you can figure out how long it takes to make it (and how many people are working concurrently), its pretty easy to estimate the price. A suit of plate mail might involve a craftsman and three assistants (3 s.p. a day) working for a year (200-250 working days), so at least 4200 s.p.and perhaps more.

Livestock prices vary dramatically depending on how good the season has been. If the climate has been good for a few years, they'll be an excess of livestock and good prices. If the climate has been bad, then there is a shortage and prices will go up well above most peoples ability to buy.

Horses are like cars. There are clunkers, used ones, and high performance versions. A horse could go for anywhere from 20 s.p. for a broken down nag to 1600 s.p. on up for a well-trained young fit high quality warhorse or a nobles riding horse or hunting stallion. I'd assume something like 120 s.p. as an average.

Another rule I generally use is that if I can't find a comparitive historical price, and I can't estimate how long it takes to make one, I generally use the conversion 1 s.p. = $50. That's not fully accurate, but its a good guide, especially if you keep in mind that there are few mass produced goods and so use modern handmade or custom made goods as the basis of your pricing. (Don't base your prices on cheap mass market machine made goods!)
 
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A 1000 year old magic item found in a dusty crypt is STILL as potent as it was first made which doesn't apply to normal items.

Maybe it's the contrary: after 1000 years in a dust crypt that old magic item became stronger...

Anyway, I would rule the item slowly loses its potency.
 
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I wonder how things would differ if we compared it to, say, high Greek or Roman times, or Persian, or Chinese?

On this count at least, not as different as you might think. The politically powerful everywhere generally found ways to create monopolies for their benefit, interest and finance as we know it was generally considered unethical, and Chinese Confucians would have generally agreed with their Western clerical counterparts with the inherent disreputableness of buying and selling compared to say farming for a living. Throughout the ancient world basis of wealth was agarian, and the basis of agarian wealth was manpower - usually in the form of some sort of slavery system. The word 'serf' means 'slave'. Under medieval law, they'd acquired the right not to be bought and sold, but otherwise lived as slaves. Moreover, there were actual slaves without even this much in the way of rights, who were sent out to work fields that they did not own for little more than food if they were fortunate. Serfdom was itself not a new institution - it was only new that it was the dominate institution. And similar institutions existed throughout the ancient world.

For example, Japan is notable for developing an almost identical set of fuedal traditions independently on the other side of the world.

Considering that most people don't have the Christian church in their D&D settings, the influence of religion is a major wildcard.

Very much so. And even more so because if religion is less important to your setting than the Catholic chuch was to Europe in the middle ages, then you must not have thousands or ten's of thousands of spell-casting clerics daily performing miracles on behalf of the faithful in your campaign.
 

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