A workable fantasy economy?

[Celebrim]

For instance, medieval people had the technological knowledge to make crude steam powered devices (I seem to recall even way back at the Temple of Zeus, the doors were steam-powered), but they lacked the critical mass of resources and population to make it worthwhile to develop a railroad. It was simply infeasible, because they didn't have enough people to mine the necessary quantities of iron and coal, nor to construct standardized train cars.

There are other possibilities worth considering as well. The Helenistic Greeks and later thier Roman heirs had the critical mass of resources and population to begin an industrial revolution, but ultimately proved to be politically and socially unable to do so. The Roman economy was so tied to slave labor that the Romans saw industrial power like waterwheels and windmills as both unnecessary and socially destablizing and so took little interest in them except as novelties. So the Roman economy got geared toward producing higher and higher population densities rather than more and more productive citizens. As a result, when there was a shock to the economy there was a huge population crash, which in turn sent the whole society into a death spiral that took 500 years or more to turn around.

We think of the middle ages as a backwards period, but that's really only true of the very early period that no one thinks about when we think of 'medieval'. In fact, by the 11th century the medievals were rapidly becoming tech nerds, and by the 13th century they were in a full blown industrial revolution that was temporarily set back by the black death but which directly lead to the reinnaisance. By necessity, because of the low population and general unproductive land of Northern Europe, they had to invest heavily in machines.

One possibility for why magic =/= technology might not be economics. It might be social. The society simply refuses to go down that path for whatever reason - divine prohibition, lack of vision, complacency, etc.

Another reason that it might not work is that it might be like the trap in 'The God's Themselves'. Maybe you violate conservation of energy in your universe, but if the result of doing so on a large scale is the pollution of the very laws that govern your universe it might be a losing proposition in the long run. In fact, the mysterious social prohibition against the widespread use of magic might actually be grounded in this bit of lost lore. Maybe it was tried once, turned out to be disasterous and now people have forgotten why its disasterous but do remember the social stigma, axiomatic moral law, or whatever.

 

[Jezrael]

When someone asked a similar question on RPGnet, back in May I posted this:

Honestly? Until the fantasy version of Adam Smith comes to being in your world the nations of that world will probably follow either a Feudal or Mercantilist economic philosophy.

Feudal economics is more a matter of power dynamics brought about by the lack of central governmental and administrative authority. Lots of barter, some coin amongst a rising middle class and the aristocracy, and a desire by the ruler of a country to start lowering the power of feudal lords and concentrating it into himself.

Such a concentration of power will lead somewhat naturally to Mercantilism, it appeals to the desire to concentrate power in the hands of the ruler. So the typical fantasy country united by a single ruler will most likely have a Mercantilist system.

Which basically states that a nation's amount of capital (represented by gold and silver bullion) is the most important thing and that the volume of international trade is unchangeable.

A given country will try to:

- Use every last scrap of the countries national resources for the good of the country (ie the ruler)
- Limit imports of finished goods from foreign countries.
- Attempt to fob off their surplus finished goods to other countries
- Attempt to get as much gold and silver as possible in the treasury in order to limit the capital of other foreign countries.

In Mercantilism, unlike Capitalism, the economy is a zero-sum game. If Fantasyland 1's economy is growing, Fantasyland 2's is falling.

Some things mercantilism gave us on Earth were government supported monopolies such as the East India Trade Company and the idea of letters of patent.

In a fantasy setting, on a day to day basis this means:

- a limit on the number of companies trading in items. Prices will be stable because of monopoly and lack of inflation (only so much gold to go around). This means the prices won't be that much different from your player's book prices
- A high incidence of black markets, as a way around monopoly.
- Imperial ambitions on the part of most of the countries in the world.


Adding in magic:
- First, assume that the ruler has someway to keep a powerful magic-user(s) from deposing him or else that'll probably be what happens.

- Perhaps Magical might is seen as a new type of Capital to hoard. Magic items for sale? No f'ing way, at least not on the normal markets. Such items are too important for the security of the state.

- You most likely start getting alliances of wizards that want to monopolize magical theory and power getting corporate charters from the ruler. If you don't go with them you suddenly and mysteriously explode. Perhaps title and prominent positions in the government as well. See the Noblesse de Rabe of Louis XIV.

-Clerical magic...well it depends. I'll have to think about that some.

Adding in the actions of the typical adventurer:
- You slew the dragon, took its hoard, and the king gave you a nice title, some lands (probably in new conquests or frontier areas), and maybe let you keep some of the gold and a couple of lesser items. The rest, he will nationalise, or rather he'll send his wizard cadres to do so.

- You decide to throw the king the finger and keep it all. You might actually succeed in a game like D&D, you're there to disrupt the status quo. But you run a high likelihood of an early grave, because you now no longer have the protection of the local ruler. Now everyone wants the nice shiny capital you uncovered. get ready for a big ass fight. Hundred Years War Style.

- Whatever the case you actually give the economy an inflationary boost, prices start significantly changing for the first time in a long time.

Conclusion: For the most part nothing changes for the players. The prices in whatever PHB you're using stay roughly the same for long periods and then have some bumps as treasure is found. The thing that changes the most are the actions of NPCs. For most barter is the way things are done. Coinage will exist especially in cities, but the peasants will stay peasants. The rulers of nations will want to keep a close eye on adventurers so that they can swoop in and try and nationalize hoards and such. Magical items will be made for the security of the state and anyone with a sideline in the black market will be punished swiftly if found out.

I'm still not sure what kind of effect Clerical Orders will have, they will either be totally concerned with spiritual matters and the protection of their flocks, or more likely you'll get many tiny versions of the Papal States with priests and clerics in various countries as a kind of ambassadorial corps. The smart ruler brings the various churches into his administration, so that they owe more to him than to his 'Papal State' sponsor.

 

[diaglo]

may i suggest page 111 of the 1edADnD DMG (1979 revised) by Gary Gygax.

look for the Papers and Paychecks. it is a great new fantasy roleplaying game.

 

[Snoweel]

When someone asked a similar question on RPGnet, back in May I posted this:

Honestly? Until the fantasy version of Adam Smith comes to being in your world the nations of that world will probably follow either a Feudal or Mercantilist economic philosophy.

Feudal economics is more a matter of power dynamics brought about by the lack of central governmental and administrative authority. Lots of barter, some coin amongst a rising middle class and the aristocracy, and a desire by the ruler of a country to start lowering the power of feudal lords and concentrating it into himself.

Such a concentration of power will lead somewhat naturally to Mercantilism, it appeals to the desire to concentrate power in the hands of the ruler. So the typical fantasy country united by a single ruler will most likely have a Mercantilist system.

Which basically states that a nation's amount of capital (represented by gold and silver bullion) is the most important thing and that the volume of international trade is unchangeable.

A given country will try to:

- Use every last scrap of the countries national resources for the good of the country (ie the ruler)
- Limit imports of finished goods from foreign countries.
- Attempt to fob off their surplus finished goods to other countries
- Attempt to get as much gold and silver as possible in the treasury in order to limit the capital of other foreign countries.

In Mercantilism, unlike Capitalism, the economy is a zero-sum game. If Fantasyland 1's economy is growing, Fantasyland 2's is falling.

Some things mercantilism gave us on Earth were government supported monopolies such as the East India Trade Company and the idea of letters of patent.

In a fantasy setting, on a day to day basis this means:

- a limit on the number of companies trading in items. Prices will be stable because of monopoly and lack of inflation (only so much gold to go around). This means the prices won't be that much different from your player's book prices
- A high incidence of black markets, as a way around monopoly.
- Imperial ambitions on the part of most of the countries in the world.


Adding in magic:
- First, assume that the ruler has someway to keep a powerful magic-user(s) from deposing him or else that'll probably be what happens.

- Perhaps Magical might is seen as a new type of Capital to hoard. Magic items for sale? No f'ing way, at least not on the normal markets. Such items are too important for the security of the state.

- You most likely start getting alliances of wizards that want to monopolize magical theory and power getting corporate charters from the ruler. If you don't go with them you suddenly and mysteriously explode. Perhaps title and prominent positions in the government as well. See the Noblesse de Rabe of Louis XIV.

-Clerical magic...well it depends. I'll have to think about that some.

Adding in the actions of the typical adventurer:
- You slew the dragon, took its hoard, and the king gave you a nice title, some lands (probably in new conquests or frontier areas), and maybe let you keep some of the gold and a couple of lesser items. The rest, he will nationalise, or rather he'll send his wizard cadres to do so.

- You decide to throw the king the finger and keep it all. You might actually succeed in a game like D&D, you're there to disrupt the status quo. But you run a high likelihood of an early grave, because you now no longer have the protection of the local ruler. Now everyone wants the nice shiny capital you uncovered. get ready for a big ass fight. Hundred Years War Style.

- Whatever the case you actually give the economy an inflationary boost, prices start significantly changing for the first time in a long time.

Conclusion: For the most part nothing changes for the players. The prices in whatever PHB you're using stay roughly the same for long periods and then have some bumps as treasure is found. The thing that changes the most are the actions of NPCs. For most barter is the way things are done. Coinage will exist especially in cities, but the peasants will stay peasants. The rulers of nations will want to keep a close eye on adventurers so that they can swoop in and try and nationalize hoards and such. Magical items will be made for the security of the state and anyone with a sideline in the black market will be punished swiftly if found out.

I'm still not sure what kind of effect Clerical Orders will have, they will either be totally concerned with spiritual matters and the protection of their flocks, or more likely you'll get many tiny versions of the Papal States with priests and clerics in various countries as a kind of ambassadorial corps. The smart ruler brings the various churches into his administration, so that they owe more to him than to his 'Papal State' sponsor.

Thanks friend. This will really aid the verisimilitude in my game.

My 12th level Half Orc Accountant will go nuts with this.

 

[SiderisAnon]

EDIT: It occurs to me after some thought that the "one suit of armor you're proficient in" solution is maybe not as bad as I'm making it out to be. Yeah, you could sell your plate, buy scale, and have a lot of money, but would you? What would you buy with all that money that would be worth sacrificing a point of AC? Especially considering that you only get 20% of list price when selling, and scale armor, while cheaper than plate, would still be fairly pricey... this might be a worse problem in theory than in practice.

There's are several simple fact that will keep every paladin from taking a suit of platemail so they can run out and sell it:

1) Who is buying that armor? It's going to take the resources of a lord, one who happens to need plate armor in your size, to buy something like that.

2) Whoever gave it to you may be a tad upset. If your armor came from your family, you've dishonored them by selling it. If your armor came from your order, you may have just slighted your god.

3) Your reputation is probably now shot. You were successfull enough to have platemail, but suddenly you can't afford it any more. What's gone wrong? What mistakes have you made? Why were you setback in this way?


D&D is not a video game where the vendors stand around with unlimited money to buy stuff. The DM decides when there's a market for an item and how people react to its sale.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Snoweel.... we get that you are somehow personally offended that other people might find this interesting. This is your fourth threadcrap here. Isn't there another thread somewhere that deals with something you actually like?

 

[Aus_Snow]

D&D is not a video game where the vendors stand around with unlimited money to buy stuff. The DM decides when there's a market for an item and how people react to its sale.

A number of prominent fantasy computer ('video') games, that I can think of, have vendors that don't work that way. Especially when modding is a possibility. Then, even if they originally did, they don't necessarily have to any more. Not to mention games of other genres. . .

And as for D&D, well I've certainly heard of plenty of groups of gamers where these things pretty much match your characterisation of 'video games', funnily enough.

Anyway. Me, I'm all for verisimilitude, immersion and so on, basically those qualities some folks just love to take cheap shots at, it seems. There's really nothing for them to be so defensive about in the first place, but what's facts got to do with it, as usual.

A workable economy is something I have a go at, as a DM. Can't say for sure how well it works, but I and my players like it well enough. I ain't no economist, that's for sure. And relevant history, well, I pick up bits and pieces when I can. But I'm always interested in seeing what other DMs do, or are thinking of, with this stuff.

So thanks for starting what's turning out to be a fascinating thread, RW.

 

[Snoweel]

Snoweel.... we get that you are somehow personally offended that other people might find this interesting. This is your fourth threadcrap here. Isn't there another thread somewhere that deals with something you actually like?

This is very offensive.

I understand you mightn't agree with what I have to say but to then call my genuine contributions threadcrapping is extremely offensive.

 

[Flatus Maximus]

Post deleted -- Apologies folks, just trying to be funny.

 

[Umbran]

There are a couple of you n here who are being snarky, threadcrappy and rude. Please do not continue this behavior. You are unlikely to get a second warning.

Others - if you see rude behavior, we ask that you not get confrontational about it. Generally, if you try to face off against it, the offender merely gets defensive. We have a feature to report posts - at the bottom of each post, right under the username and userpic is a little icon of a triangle with an exclamation point. Click that, and it will allow you to report the post to the moderators, with some comments of what you think is wrong, and the mods can look into it.

Thanks much.