D&D 5E Ability Score Balance: through the eyes of fresh players

No, martials benefit just as much from the mental scores being positive as the casters do, just as casters benefit from high physical scores if they want them.

Err... no. Casters dont give a naughty word if they no longer get Str or Dex to hit and damage with weapons. They're still going to dump Strength (they dont carry anything anyway) have decent Con and Dex (they're only there for the HP, Concentration saves and AC bonus, which is still intact) and max out their Casting stat (Int, Wis or Cha) and get all the same bonuses for doing so, plus extra.

Rogues and Dex based fighters and Rangers now need Strength AND Dexterity to be viable.

You've basically made half the martials in your game MAD, while giving the casters a boost.
 

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To a certain degree, yes. Ideally, dumping any one of them should be a choice with significant trade offs and be noticed in play. Some character concepts and classes may favor certain choices, such as strength for fighters with big, two-handed weapons. But the game should have ample opportunity for that player to notice and feel he doesn’t do well in things dependent on the lower stat values he had to put elsewhere to get that high strength. Any tendency to neutralize those instances, for that character, should be seen as a weakness in the game rules.
if most players are dumping the same stat, and having the same impact for doing that, the stats aren't balanced, but the situation you desire still exists.

Your response has little to do with balance between the stats.
 

Hi everyone! I'm going to be running Lost Mines of Phandelver for a group of 5, 4 of whom have never played before but have really wanted to. We've got a half-orc barbarian, a tiefling rogue, a drow ranger, a wood elf druid, and a rock gnome wizard.

Most players only invest in what makes their character strong at combat. There's only 2-3 stats for every character that help combat.

1. Primary Stat
2. Secondary Stat
3. Constitution

For combat - the only time to take away from these stats is to boost another stat is to meet a multiclass requirement.

The Barbarian has a Strong 16, everyone else has a Strong 8. The Barbarian and Wizard have Con 16, the ranger has Con 14, and the rogue and druid have Con 12.

Strength adds very little. As long as it's not needed for damage or armor it's a nearly worthless stat - which is what you see reflected.

That said - all you need is a few str athletics challenges that are life and death situations to change that perspective.

12 is actually the lowest Con scores I've seen in a game before.

It has me, yet again, for my homebrewed houserules (this game is by the book, unless the ranger wants to go beastmaster, then I'll offer beast of air or earth) thinking about how to change Constitution and possibly nerfing Dex.

Why do you want to change them?

Constitution is a tough one. I don't think Constitution is too good. The trouble is that it's good for everyone, and it feels important to everyone. It might be possible to adjust Constitution, taking away it's +HP/level but making it so HD recover entirely on a long rest (and have HD still apply Constitution modifier). This way, high Con characters would recover faster, but they wouldn't necessarily be tougher than others.

A stat that makes you tougher than others is important. If you remove that from Con what stat can I take to make me tougher?

For Strength vs Dexterity, I think they can be brought more to balance if Finesse weapons only applied Dex to hit and ranged weapons used Str to damage still (except the crossbow). Perhaps using the variant carrying capacity more would help too, as the carrying capacity for 8 Str makes even light armor pretty encumbering.

They are balanced as long as both are either an important stat to a character. Str has access to two handed weapons, is better at knocking prone, is better at grappling, ability to use heavy armor and ability to carry more. A big part of str seeming worse than dex is due to grappling and shoving being view as less useful than they actually are.

The issue is that dex is the secondary stat for all characters that don't wear heavy armor - because it increases AC - a combat ability - whereas strength doesn't do that for them.

So if you want to see strong wizards/bards/sorcerers/warlocks/etc - give them heavy armor proficiency. They will actually have a decision to make then about whether to be strong or dexterous.

Now, it is partially class choice, as only one chose a class that prioritizes Str, but I just found it particularly interesting that no one put 10s or 12s in Str (everyone used Standard Array).

I don't. Everyone that doesn't go str and heavy armor needs dex for AC. It's not hard to imagine why str comes into play so little in those situations.
 

I think there are too many ability scores to balance them effectively. I would reduce the number to 4:

Strength
  • Melee attack & damage bonuses
  • Hit Points per level
  • Strength (+ Current Constitution) saving throws
  • Athletics skill
  • Carrying Capacity
  • Push, Drag, Lift

Dexterity
  • Ranged attack & damage bonuses
  • AC
  • Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth skills
  • Initiative

Intelligence
  • Arcana, Deception, History, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Religion, Survival
  • Spellcasting ability for druids, rangers, wizards, and warlocks
  • Intelligence saves
  • Bonus proficiencies

Willpower
  • Animal Handling, Insight, Intimation, Performance, Persuasion
  • Spellcasting ability for bards, clerics, paladins, and sorcerers
  • Wisdom and Charisma saves
  • Extra Inspiration
 
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If strength being weak and dex being amazing is a problem in your game, just fuse str and con into a single stat, and remove a 14 from the standard array.
 

I never get the 'strength is weak' arguments.

You can dump Dex to 8 and wear heavy armour and who cares? You can use Strength based ranged weapons which are reasonable, GWM to your hearts content and carry a lot; plus Athletics is far more useful that Acrobatics.

Dex saves are better than Strength saves, but few Dex saves impose status effects; they're just more HP damage, so its not a big deal (like in 3.5 - you wanted good Will and Fort, but Ref wasnt as important). Guess you also get a hit to initiative, but meh.

Im not seeing it. The only Dex builds I've seen in my games have been Rogues and Monks, and that's fair enough.
 

I never get the 'strength is weak' arguments.

You can dump Dex to 8 and wear heavy armour and who cares? You can use Strength based ranged weapons which are reasonable, GWM to your hearts content and carry a lot; plus Athletics is far more useful that Acrobatics.

Dex saves are better than Strength saves, but few Dex saves impose status effects; they're just more HP damage, so its not a big deal (like in 3.5 - you wanted good Will and Fort, but Ref wasnt as important). Guess you also get a hit to initiative, but meh.

Im not seeing it. The only Dex builds I've seen in my games have been Rogues and Monks, and that's fair enough.

For me, I think dump stats shouldn't exist. Dump STR should be heavily penalize, but so should dumping INT, WIS, CON, DEX, and CHA. Dumping any ability score should hurt.

So the problem isn't that boosting STR isn't valuable, but in many cases dumping it is too easy, just like most other ability scores.
 

For me, I think dump stats shouldn't exist. Dump STR should be heavily penalize, but so should dumping INT, WIS, CON, DEX, and CHA. Dumping any ability score should hurt.

So the problem isn't that boosting STR isn't valuable, but in many cases dumping it is too easy, just like most other ability scores.

Nothing you can do to str will make it as good as AC (dex for any non-heavy armor character) - barring giving heavy armor proficiency to everyone.
 

So the problem isn't that boosting STR isn't valuable, but in many cases dumping it is too easy, just like most other ability scores.

Thats up to the DM though isnt it?

Ensure the player that dumped Charisma gets treated like naughty word (or ignored) by NPC's. Remind the player with the Int of 8 that his PC is a total idiot, and to play it accordingly (feel free to disallow any Knowledge checks beyond rudimentary knowledge only), ditto the player with the Wisdom of 8 (who likely makes dumb decisions a lot).

Players should roleplay their weaknesses voluntarily of course. If they dont, the DM should step in.
 

Nothing you can do to str will make it as good as AC (dex for any non-heavy armor character) - barring giving heavy armor proficiency to everyone.
I had a proposal above that I think makes STR as valuable as DEX:

I think there are too many ability scores to balance them effectively. I would reduce the number to 4:

Strength

  • Melee attack & damage bonuses
  • Hit Points per level
  • Strength (+ Current Constitution) saving throws
  • Athletics skill
  • Carrying Capacity
  • Push, Drag, Lift

Dexterity

  • Ranged attack & damage bonuses
  • AC
  • Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth skills
  • Initiative

Intelligence

  • Arcana, Deception, History, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Religion, Survival
  • Spellcasting ability for druids, rangers, wizards, and warlocks
  • Intelligence saves
  • Bonus proficiencies

Willpower

  • Animal Handling, Insight, Intimation, Performance, Persuasion
  • Spellcasting ability for bards, clerics, paladins, and sorcerers
  • Wisdom and Charisma saves
  • Extra Inspiration
 

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