D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Yaarel]

I'm not a fan of magic shops either, at least not the ones that just happen to have the item your paladin needs to finish her perfect build. Items should come from adventuring, or strange old folks selling cursed frogurt.

I love when magic items feel magic.

Money turning magic into a commodity makes them feel too mundane.

I like attunement, both in the sense of needing to personally commune with the magic (and intention) of the item, and in the sense of limiting how many items are usable.

A player can be in a room with a thousand magic items, but if for various reasons only one is attunable, then the player has only one usable item. A player can pay a million bold pieces for a magic item, but if the item refuses to attune, then it is near worthless.

There are almost no magical shops because magic refuses to cooperate. Almost always, items transfer from one person to an other by means of implicit or explicit agreements. The process of attempting to attune during a short rest, establishes what its parameters are, whether lenient or stringent.

The magic item continues the intention of its creator. Normally, this intention is ambient, conveying either yes or no to the attunement. Sometimes the item conveys the personality of its creator.

Magic is magic. It disresembles a mundane technology.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I actually think that's a super-interesting point, but I wish you had presented it as such, and something worth probing and exploring to reach understanding, instead of as (unless I'm mis-reading you) evidence of the weakness of the opposing position.

I mean, sure, the wording blatantly reflected my own position, but I really don't think it is any sort of evidence of weakness of anyone's position. But it is pretty interesting how people seem to basically be fine with the same 'imbalance' in one context but not in another. Which is not to say that context doesn't matter, but then we need to actually explore that context.

I personally dislike racial ASIs, but I don't mind when somebody else has "better" magic items than I do. Maybe that's because I know that some day I might get an even better one (or, at least, it will strengthen my position when we start discussing who gets the next one). Or because it's not an intrinsic relative weakness of my character. Not sure.

Yeah, and that is one sort of reasoning, and it is rather funny, because I feel pretty much the opposite. Like if the weakness is due something I intentionally chose, I'm fine with it. But magic items generally are something that is out of my control. Either the GM just awards them (either evenly or unevenly) or they're just randomised.

Although I haven't thought a lot about this issue, I have thought a lot about why magic items are so compelling, and the answer I came up with may be relevant here: the reason we like magic items so much is that it gives us power beyond the deterministic progression of the rules. Sure, when you turn level 5 you get an additional +1, but that's just baseline progression. When you also get a +1 sword it puts you ahead of that baseline progression, and it feels like OVERWHELMING POWER.

At least, that's my theory.

I do know that in non-magical settings/genres, the absence of magical items always feels like a big hole to me. I think it's why I always return to fantasy.

The problem with this, is that if the game math 'expects' the magic items, or even if it doesn't but the players do, it isn't really some extra. It is mandatory part you must have or you're weaker than expected.

 

[abirdcall]

The problem with this, is that if the game math 'expects' the magic items, or even if it doesn't but the players do, it isn't really some extra. It is mandatory part you must have or you're weaker than expected.

This is why I roll for all of the magic items. Both for how many there are (maybe none at all) and what they are.

Every time the party finds something it's a big deal and it is up to them to best utilize it.

 

[Scribe]

Although I haven't thought a lot about this issue, I have thought a lot about why magic items are so compelling, and the answer I came up with may be relevant here: the reason we like magic items so much is that it gives us power beyond the deterministic progression of the rules. Sure, when you turn level 5 you get an additional +1, but that's just baseline progression. When you also get a +1 sword it puts you ahead of that baseline progression, and it feels like OVERWHELMING POWER.

At least, that's my theory.

I do know that in non-magical settings/genres, the absence of magical items always feels like a big hole to me. I think it's why I always return to fantasy

Borrowed power can be cool.
Punching above your weight can be cool.
There is something (to me) that is inherently fun with items of power.

Where does it come from? Who made it? Who has used it? What does it do?

To me, it's a core pillar of how I approach Fantasy.

 

[Scott Christian]

I'm totally cool with fun unique magic items like those. What I grew to dislike about AD&D was that my character had to have X items in Y slots to remain viable at Z levels.

And here it is again. The need, the essential need, to have that extra +1 to remain "viable." As if the character is worthless with their +7 instead of their +8. It doesn't matter how many feats you add. It doesn't matter how you describe, partition or inflate a race's innate, divine and cultural abilities. If there is an extra +1, all that becomes null and void.

 

[Scott Christian]

Question on the magic items:
Let's pretend the party is all equal. They are level 8 and all of them have the same +8 on their attack roll. When the rogue gets a +2 dagger, and now they are at +10, does everyone else start to gripe? Cheer? Does the table even notice? I am truly curious.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Question on the magic items:
Let's pretend the party is all equal. They are level 8 and all of them have the same +8 on their attack roll. When the rogue gets a +2 dagger, and now they are at +10, does everyone else start to gripe? Cheer? Does the table even notice? I am truly curious.

As much as I enjoy magic items, I have been at tables where something like that happened and there was griping. Unfortunately, it's a cost of doing business.

 

[Scribe]

Question on the magic items:
Let's pretend the party is all equal. They are level 8 and all of them have the same +8 on their attack roll. When the rogue gets a +2 dagger, and now they are at +10, does everyone else start to gripe? Cheer? Does the table even notice? I am truly curious.

Throughout my life?

'Sweet dude, let's keep going and see what we find next.'

Now you'll have to excuse me, I have a 3 hour raid tonight in WoW, I hope the ring I want drops.

 

[Scott Christian]

As much as I enjoy magic items, I have been at tables where something like that happened and there was griping. Unfortunately, it's a cost of doing business.

I have seen it too. But that was a random table. I have never seen it with those that I have had campaigns with. Most of the time it was cheering. At later levels, it was barely noticed. Like: "Oh yeah, I forgot you had that +2 sword that does an extra d6 fire damage." And that was in a campaign where we were 12th level and maybe had one or two magic items each. (I can say there were eight players, so it got hard to keep track of who had what.)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And here it is again. The need, the essential need, to have that extra +1 to remain "viable." As if the character is worthless with their +7 instead of their +8. It doesn't matter how many feats you add. It doesn't matter how you describe, partition or inflate a race's innate, divine and cultural abilities. If there is an extra +1, all that becomes null and void.

Question on the magic items:
Let's pretend the party is all equal. They are level 8 and all of them have the same +8 on their attack roll. When the rogue gets a +2 dagger, and now they are at +10, does everyone else start to gripe? Cheer? Does the table even notice? I am truly curious.

These really get to the core to the problem. Is elves having +2 to dex a cool perk that emulates the elven agility? Is +1 magic weapon that glows in the dark a nice extra? To many people they're not. They become the expected baseline, so if they don't have that it is perceived 'unfair.' And ultimately as long as people feel that way, I don't think this is a solvable issue except by removing the variety. The game simply has to dictate that all characters have a given bonus at given level, same for everyone.