D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Zubatcarteira]

Yeah the thing I've alluded to in this thread, but is really the elephant in the room, is that I (as an optimizer) almost never play non-humans anyway. vHuman is just too compelling, largely because all you need is a 16; the 17 is superfluous. So anything that makes vHuman relatively less attractive is probably a good thing.

Yeah, humans are just too good. When I started playing with some other new players the party was Half-Orc, Aasimar, Wood-Elf and Half-Elf. When some of the characters died a bit later and we knew the game better, the Half-Orc became a VHuman, the Half-Elf became a VHuman, and the Aasimar left and the new player got VHuman.

 

[Scribe]

Then I think it's possible that you genuinely are not understanding part of the optimizer mindset, especially because you use the computer game example. Although I don't play a lot of video games, when I do I get really into the optimization. But then the game gets too easy, so I start looking for ways to make it harder while optimizing. Although I'm nowhere even remotely in this league, the highest achievement in computer RPGs (or so I gather from the Internet) is to be able to beat a game solo, in hard ("Hell") mode. If it was just about making things easy, optimizers would only play in the easiest setting, right?

Again, I'm sure there are people out there who want to be better than everybody else at the table, and "beat" the DM, etc. I wouldn't play with them. But for some (many?) of us, the "arms race" between better and better characters and harder and harder difficulty is exactly why optimization is fun. For the players and the DM.

That doesn't mean everybody has to enjoy this mode, of course, but I do think your characterization of the mindset is way off base. Or, at least, only applies to a tiny minority.

And the unspoken statement here, is that balance doesn't exist.

If it's possible for someone to so reach levels of power that the person using the same rule set beside them feels (and performs!) completely irrelevant in comparison, how can we claim the game is balanced?

It isn't, otherwise power ranking, guides, and meta picks, would not exist.

 

[Bill Zebub]

And again, my point is that the unusual combinations will not be used by powergamers, who will all go the the same "better deal". This is basically what the guides recommend if your DM is generous enough to give you floating ASIs, and I'm still waiting for examples of characters build along an unusual combination that has actually seen play.

Again, impossible to have statistics, but with the number of people here arguing for floating ASIs, I was expecting to see at least some proof...

Can I get some clarity on what you are asking for? Is it a character that (a) uses the Tasha's rules (b) is a non-traditional race/class combo, and (c) isn't a powergamer build? Could you give us an example of what you consider an acceptable answer?

I personally haven't even started a new character since Tasha's, and the one I do want to play is a vHuman (of course) but I don't really understand what you're asking for.

 

[Bill Zebub]

And the unspoken statement here, is that balance doesn't exist.

If it's possible for someone to so reach levels of power that the person using the same rule set beside them feels (and performs!) completely irrelevant in comparison, how can we claim the game is balanced?

It isn't, otherwise power ranking, guides, and meta picks, would not exist.

"completely irrelevant" might possibly be an exaggeration.

The only time I've seen players be useless (or even worse than useless and actually drag everybody else down with them) during play it's because of their decisions, not their character.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

And again, my point is that the unusual combinations will not be used by powergamers, who will all go the the same "better deal". This is basically what the guides recommend if your DM is generous enough to give you floating ASIs, and I'm still waiting for examples of characters build along an unusual combination that has actually seen play.

Again, impossible to have statistics, but with the number of people here arguing for floating ASIs, I was expecting to see at least some proof...

Then the non-powergamers can use those combinations instead if they really have those concepts in mind, while the ones who only care about power make their characters that are slightly stronger than if they had used a Variant Human instead.

 

[Lyxen]

Then I think it's possible that you genuinely are not understanding part of the optimizer mindset, especially because you use the computer game example. Although I don't play a lot of video games, when I do I get really into the optimization. But then the game gets too easy, so I start looking for ways to make it harder while optimizing. Although I'm nowhere even remotely in this league, the highest achievement in computer RPGs (or so I gather from the Internet) is to be able to beat a game solo, in hard ("Hell") mode. If it was just about making things easy, optimizers would only play in the easiest setting, right?

Again, I'm sure there are people out there who want to be better than everybody else at the table, and "beat" the DM, etc. I wouldn't play with them. But for some (many?) of us, the "arms race" between better and better characters and harder and harder difficulty is exactly why optimization is fun. For the players and the DM.

And again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if this is what you are expecting of the game.

Note however, your use of the word "solo" above. Lots of people writing the game or wanting to optimise it do it in a vacuum, with no consequence to the game, and again I have nothing against this if it is what is floating their boat.

But at our tables, we have a completely different mindset, see what the devs think:

• "To play D&D, and to play it well, you don’t need to read all the rules, memorize every detail of the game, or master the fine art of rolling funny looking dice. None of those things have any bearing on what’s best about the game."
• "Playing D&D is an exercise in collaborative creation. You and your friends create epic stories filled with tension and memorable drama."

When you want to achieve this, and you have people at your table who just want harder difficulty on technical fights (whereas we think it does not matter because the fight difficulty is not an aim at all), you can see that there is an incompatibility here...

It does not prevent powergamers to play with us, and once their instincts are curbed by the realisation that their powergaming does not matter and that their collective roleplaying is what makes it better for the group, they can be fantastic players.

That doesn't mean everybody has to enjoy this mode, of course, but I do think your characterization of the mindset is way off base. Or, at least, only applies to a tiny minority.

I think I get it perfectly well, see above.

 

[Scribe]

"completely irrelevant" might possibly be an exaggeration.

The only time I've seen players be useless (or even worse than useless and actually drag everybody else down with them) during play it's because of their decisions, not their character.

Granted, but if one has a table with 2 front line characters, 1 fully optimized, the other unintentionally the opposite, is the gap small, or large?

 

[Lyxen]

Can I get some clarity on what you are asking for? Is it a character that (a) uses the Tasha's rules (b) is a non-traditional race/class combo, and (c) isn't a powergamer build? Could you give us an example of what you consider an acceptable answer?

I personally haven't even started a new character since Tasha's, and the one I do want to play is a vHuman (of course) but I don't really understand what you're asking for.

I'm speaking about someone showing a character like my halfling warlock (with racial ASIs) but with floating ASIs, where he has not used the floating ASIs to compound even further his racial and class synergies.

Should not be that difficult if it exists.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Granted, but if one has a table with 2 front line characters, 1 fully optimized, the other unintentionally the opposite, is the gap small, or large?

I'm not sure how you would rank "small" or "large" but I will agree it's "readily apparent". But, even then, in 5e I really believe it is only party about character optimization, and more about rules mastery and decision making. If those two players swapped characters, I think the optimizer would still be more effective.

 

[Lyxen]

Then the non-powergamers can use those combinations instead if they really have those concepts in mind, while the ones who only care about power make their characters that are slightly stronger than if they had used a Variant Human instead.

The thing that you don't understand is that non powergamers absolutely accept that their racial ASIs will not support completely the class, like my halfling sorceress with racial ASIs.

I don't need floating ASIs to totally enjoy that character, I can create the concept perfectly well with racial ASIs.