I don't know what to say...
Neither do I...
And this is where you are 100% absolutely wrong, especially with D&D, most collaborative game ever if played in the right way. I've already said here that for me, as a DM, my fun is when my PLAYERS are having fun. And when I'm a player, it's when the other players are having fun, and I go out of my way to make this happen.
But honestly, with the kind of view that you express, I'm not surprised of the rant below.
People take pleasure in different thing. What would be selfish would be to stomp on other peoples fun, being disrespectful, etc. But playing a certain way, whether it's being a theater kid in costume, enjoying building a really efficient character with some cool abilities, or exploring a fictional world and being focused less on your character and more on the setting, they're all valid. As a GM, you have to find a way to accommodate different types of fun. The more there is in your group, the harder it will be. But approaching the game from a power gaming is not more selfish than other ways.
And my point of view is that it is, with good proof and long experience. When I build a character, I first check what the DM expects of the game in terms of story, relationships, background, what type of characters the others want to play. But when you want to play "your build", it's forcing it down the throat of everyone else at the table, just for the pride of having "the build". And to be effective at the table, technically, more than the others.
Powergaming is not more selfish than spending weeks writing a backstory and sticking out your past at every roleplaying opportunity. There's players with bad habits in all gaming styles.
And again, I don't disagree with that. And I don't write huge backstories, I'm more a fan of having simple elements and really using what's happening at the table to rebound and retroactively create story elements that I know will fit with what's happening with the game.
The exact same could be said to you in relation to how you play. All the better for you if you play with open-minded players, but if you play with strangers you might encounter people that enjoy different aspects of the game.
Of course I do, and in that kind of case I'm very careful not to step on their toes or to show them how powerful my build is.
Oh boy. Multiclassing absolutely allows to explore new role, and it allows you to do things that the, in my opinion, very limited class/subclass system of 5E doesn't allow. It's also a great way to reflect change in a character, a Fighter that takes interest in everything nature related as the campaign progresses and decides to put a few levels in Druid.
Yes, it's possible. Have you ever done that for pure story reasons ? Please answer honestly. And show me the character.
I'd be much more excited by one player coming to say he'll dip in a second class than a player saying "this time around I'll play this subclass instead".
Only it's not what is happening. Actually, you know what, when I'm a player I don't even know the archetype of my fellow players, and sometimes I don't even know their class.
Multiclassing can be used purely for its technical value, but it's not inherently that way. You're one of the most binary people I've seen online. It doesn't have to be one of the other. In your mind, it's impossible to conceptualize that a DM could allow these options without wanting more powerful characters. It doesn't make it reality.
You have not been reading what I've written. I'm not saying that powergamers do not roleplay, they are usually clever people and nothing prevents then from enjoying other aspects of the game. But their characters are not created for story reason or to explore race/class combinations. They are created to be powerful, which restricts them to a few acceptable combinations.
Pray tell, let us know about the characters that you have played, I'm interested.
Because, to come back to the subject of this thread, anyone telling me that he NEEDS floating ASIs to explore new race/class combinations is not out there to explore them in terms of role, sorry.
Esh. Aside from the very condescending tone of your message, everything you're sharing is anecdotal. You having played this way for forty years as absolutely no impact on the conclusions of a discussion like this. You can't make any facts out of it. For people like you, there's someone that focused on getting gold, magic items, building powerful characters with little roleplaying.
You are the one making this binary here, my friend, not I.
This feels like when of my coworker argues me that my hershey bar is not a chocolate bar but a candy bar because it's written on the packaging for legal reasons. You've quoted like five sentences from various editions as a proof that these games were designed one way, and should be played that way.
It's interesting that I, at least, have quotes from the designers that prove their intent when designing the game when you have NOTHING from them mentioning powergaming, crating builds, etc. as the intent of the game. I've asked this question 10 pages ago, and still nothing.
I haven't played anything before 3rd edition. And you're right that every edition from 3rd to 5th does mention and encourage roleplaying. But you're buying a set of books that total multiple hundred of pages, and 95% of the stuff inside is rules, options, magic items to get, feats, etc. What you're buying is a technical framework with technical content, there's no rules for roleplaying.
Maybe because none are needed ? Because for people who read the books in the light of these introductions it's enough to imagine the characters that they want to play ?
Most editions, aside from a few sentences in the opening chapter and a two-page spread example of four people roleplaying, say very little about roleplaying.
Actually they do, but just as the social part of the game, few rules (if any) are needed.
I'm not arguing that roleplaying isn't an important part of D&D. It is. Or at least it is for me. But if there's one rule that trumps anything you could quote me, it is that no two groups play this game the same way. There's no "core" or "true" D&D experience. Even the designers themselves have said that they made some changes and don't play everything as per the rules. All kind of people play these games for all kind of reasons, they're all as legitimate and they're not more or less true what what you consider the basis of D&D.
And again, you are so focussed on proving me wrong that you are not even reading what I say. I've said from the start that I know all that, and that I accept all ways of playing as good as long as the table is having fun.
At the same time, like everyone, I'm entitled to exactly the same respect for the way we play, which is by the way exactly the same way I played in the states, in the UK, in Australia and in Singapore, with many different people of many different origins.
And the only thing I'm telling you here is that the most annoying players that I've encountered are powergamers who, not only content with promoting competition at tables, also sneer down at people who are obviously not as clever as they are for having "inferior" characters.
And that, to limit the impact of technical gaming, there are some options that we do not allow, and in particular Floating ASIs, which are absolutely not needed to play the game as designed and explore all race/class combinations. That's all.
It seems to me like you've spent 40 years playing the same way
You have not read all my posts. I've been a hardcore powergamer, and I've been a hardcore roleplayer. What this has taught me is that I was much more of a jerk when trying to "win" a game which is by definition not winnable (just read the introduction of the PH).
, and you're so entrenched in your way of playing that you cannot fathom people playing differently. You'll allow them to. But they're going against what D&D is. They're being selfish. They're just interested in technical options.
No, they are not, but their interest in technical options is:
- Preventing them from enjoying other aspects of the game
- Preventing them from exploring many parts of the game because they are deemed inferior.
Once again, it seems impossible for you to conceptualize that someone could both spend time to build an efficient character and roleplay. But these things are not mutually exclusive, I'm a man of both crowds.
If you think that I have said this, then prove it. I'll be waiting.
I will scour books for options and build optimized character. I like when my DM sends us some really tough challenges and I like overcoming them because I've built my character well. But I also voice my character, I write an extensive backstory, I force myself in doing some in-character choices.
Forcing is never good. just enjoy the game the way you like to play it, unless it's to help someone else at the table or be nice to them.
Things are not binary. Stop trying to push your view of the hobby as universal and absolute facts.
I'm not doing any such thing, but honestly stop putting words in my mouth, you are the one being extremely binary here.
