D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[turnip_farmer]

Constitution merges into Strength, while Dexterity picks up all the agile aspects of Strength.

What do you mean by the 'agile aspects of strength'? Using Dex for climbing and jumping?

 

[Yaarel]

What do you mean by the 'agile aspects of strength'? Using Dex for climbing and jumping?

Yeah, especially jumping, but climbing too. Springing up a rope, pullup over a cliff edge, running up a mountain, are vital aspects of agility. Swimming in the sense of locomoting underwater too.

Basically:

agility = mobility

So Dexterity (Athletics) checks handle all of these kinds of things.

 

[carkl3000]

I'll catch up on the rest of the thread as I'm able to, but in the meantime...

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but one nice thing about ASI flexibility is just the opportunity to have even ability scores instead of odd. I rolled stats for my stout halfling druid and would have had 15 dex, 17 con with the standard stout halfling bonuses. Instead I can start with 14 dex, 18 con which works better for my medium armor-wearing, frontline caster druid.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'll catch up on the rest of the thread as I'm able to, but in the meantime...

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but one nice thing about ASI flexibility is just the opportunity to have even ability scores instead of odd. I rolled stats for my stout halfling druid and would have had 15 dex, 17 con with the standard stout halfling bonuses. Instead I can start with 14 dex, 18 con which works better for my medium armor-wearing, frontline caster druid.

That's just kludge to patch a flaw in the system though. If uneven ability scores are always to be avoided, why even have them? What I did was to make ASIs from levelling to be always two +1s, +2 in one stat not being an option. That way your stats keep altering between even and odd as you level, so it isn't completely stupid to start with an uneven score.

 

[carkl3000]

That's just kludge to patch a flaw in the system though. If uneven ability scores are always to be avoided, why even have them? What I did was to make ASIs from levelling to be always two +1s, +2 in one stat not being an option. That way your stats keep altering between even and odd as you level, so it isn't completely stupid to start with an uneven score.

That sounds fine. I'm not averse to having an odd stat ever. I like some of the half feats and plan to take a couple of them. But i don't ever really want anything more than 14 in dex for this build, so that starting 15 would have been a wasted point for my entire career.

 

[Yaarel]

That's just kludge to patch a flaw in the system though. If uneven ability scores are always to be avoided, why even have them? What I did was to make ASIs from levelling to be always two +1s, +2 in one stat not being an option. That way your stats keep altering between even and odd as you level, so it isn't completely stupid to start with an uneven score.

Heh, I would rather just use the bonuses, and just drop scores. So each ability improvement turns a +1 Strength bonus into a +2 Strength bonus, a +2 Str into a +3 Str, and so on.

But with the vestigial "score" in place, the thinking goes, the even scores refer to the bonuses, while the odd scores refer to the minimum score requirements. Meanwhile, when starting with a mix of odd and even scores, boosting two odd scores can be as valuable as boosting one even score. So deciding between one +2 score or two +1 scores still has merit. Meanwhile, many feats grant a useful feature along with a +1 score.

 

[Yaarel]

When designing a race as an assemblage of feats to choose from, the choices can include:
• race feats
• race half-feats
• ability +2
• ability +1

So a player can decide their character concept according to their choices.

 

[mrpopstar]

This is an incredibly dangerous mindset, and depends on what you mean about stereotypes and how much they pertain to something someone choices (I don't think any of us here would have issues with a lot of stereotypes of D&D players) versus something inate within a person our part of their cultural upbringing (which is... a lot of the most dangerous ones).

Just something that I heard once during a lecture I sat in on. Was worth a long think.

As an Irish American, I know a thing or two about being stereotyped.

They're all true, they just don't tell the whole story.

You chose the brutal route, huh?

 

[billd91]

You know what’s a game that manages to have ancestral ability score bonuses, and even ability score penalties, without them being biologically essentialist? Pathfinder 2e. The way ability scores are generated in that game, you can start with an 18 in your primary ability, a 14 in two secondary abilities, a 12 in an ability of your choice and 10s in your other abilities, regardless of your ancestry and class combination. Or if you don’t want to be quite as min/maxy, you can get 18, 14, 12, 12, 12, 10. It’s great because you get the flavor of the ancestral ability score adjustments, but every race is still equally viable for any class. And they do it by having background, class, and your own personal choice all play a role in determining your starting ability scores. Yes, dwarves may be a bit stronger and tougher (though less charismatic) on average than elves, but if an elf wants to become a Barbarian, through their background experiences, their training as a Barbarian, and their own hard work and dedication, they can overcome that slight statistical disadvantage and become as good a Barbarian as any dwarf. Now that’s some good game design!

This analysis is weird to me. Yes, PF2 offers more sources of stat bonuses to adjust the character based on more than just ancestry - but the fact remains that some ancestry/class combinations require more commitment of these stat bonuses to achieve than others for the same mechanical benefits. How that absolves PF2 from biologically essentialist while D&D is essentialist is beyond me. It's just a matter of degree, not a matter of completely removing it, and the choices you had in placing your stats (whether rolled, arrayed, or bought on points) always had a similar chance to affect it.

That said, I did like when the playtest offered some stat bonus from class choices and thought it was a worthwhile design decision.

 

[ReshiIRE]

Just something that I heard once during a lecture I sat in on. Was worth a long think.

As an Irish American, I know a thing or two about being stereotyped.

I'm sure you do.

Though I haven't experienced it in real life as an Irish person living in Ireland, I certainly know all the wonderful things people say about Irish and Irish-Americans, how we're all violent, and drunk, and oh so very very religious and God-fearing folk.

Which naturally describes me and tens of thousands of young non drinking non-church going folk who couldn't hurt a fly.

...

I'm not saying I haven't laughed at some of the funny 'stereotypes' made up about Irish people or in particular about people from different counties. Or the commonality of various things in Irish life. But saying all stereotypes have truth to them is dangerous. Yes, Ireland and its people do in some capacity have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, but it's not an ingrained aspect of Irishness. Neither is violence. And while Catholicism and religion have had a big impact on Irish culture... that has started to change.

So be careful approaching stereotypes. They can lead you down ways of thinking that are simply inaccurate, and refuse to look at how important individuality versus someone's culture or community is.