D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[LadyElect]

If the argument really is that they need to 'tell their story' and racial ASI is a constraint against that it stands to reason that they would argue against other constraints. So I asked a question about that.

I suppose my confusion is—given the initial examples of Genasi Cleric or perhaps Halfling Barbarian—why does that stand to suggest that someone would desire other free form modifications (or another system) more than it suggests they want to remain rooted in 5e and its traditions?

Conversely, saying:

If you want to tell a story write a book.

Seems to negate a reason for social interaction and role play, which I’d consider as much a foundational aspect of 5e and D&D as the traditional archetypes. In this sense, does that not also bring into question the choice and purpose of 5e as the given system?

 

[abirdcall]

I suppose my confusion is—given the initial examples of Genasi Cleric or perhaps Halfling Barbarian—why does that stand to suggest that someone would desire other free form modifications (or another system) more than it suggests they want to remain rooted in 5e and its traditions?

Conversely, saying:

Seems to negate a reason for social interaction and role play, which I’d consider as much a foundational aspect of 5e and D&D as the traditional archetypes. In this sense, does that not also bring into question the choice and purpose of 5e as the given system?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Maxperson]

Without commenting on whether or not keeping both methods is a good idea, I do think you are exaggerating the importance of racial ASIs as an intrinsic component of the overall design philosophy. It’s no more important than Druids and metal armor, or Paladin alignment restriction. It’s just something we keep around because of tradition and flavor.

I disagree. The druid armor restriction is nothing but flavor. While the racial ASIs are a mechanic that is tied in to what races mean. It's more than just tradition. As for paladins and alignment, that's been gone for multiple editions now. Neither 4e or 5e have any restriction at all.

 

[Yaarel]

Removal of racial ASI, is a decrease, no matter how slight, in the amount of tradition andcorresponding flavour, one has in a game or setting. I dont want that to decrease at all.

The problem is, the "tradition" is problematic, which is why D&D bit the bullet and decentered the race ability improvement in the first place.

 

[Maxperson]

And I think the question of where we draw the line for lore depictions reflected statistically is an interesting one. I understand the argument that Elves are depicted as a more dextrous race than many and thus deserve an ASI separate from any dexterity-based traits or abilities they gain to further elucidate that. But if Rogues are depicted as more dextrous than certain other classes then should the class also provide an ASI separate from the dexterity-based abilities and features it provides? And if the Athlete background carries a dextrous depiction then should it also provide an ASI alongside the dexterity-based proficiencies it provides?

Rogues are not inherently more dexterous, though. More dexterous people become successful rogues(most of the rest get caught and jailed/killed), so that's what we see. It's like looking at astrophysicists and thinking that learning astrophysics gives you intelligence points, rather than the discipline requiring a high intelligence to begin with.

 

[Scribe]

The problem is, the "tradition" is problematic, which is why D&D bit the bullet and decentered the race ability improvement in the first place.

That's an opinion, yes.

 

[Malmuria]

Without commenting on whether or not keeping both methods is a good idea, I do think you are exaggerating the importance of racial ASIs as an intrinsic component of the overall design philosophy. It’s no more important than Druids and metal armor, or Paladin alignment restriction. It’s just something we keep around because of tradition and flavor.

Now, that tradition and flavor may be valuable. Essential, even. (I don’t think so, but that’s me.). But it’s an appendage to the rules, not a core mechanic.

I think/hope the design goals around ASI are shifting in the same way (as with alignment restrictions for paladins and druids). Even for 5e, I think people are right in thinking a player could want to play a halfling barbarian, but the game would either say a) "no, that's not the archetype that you want" or b)"sure, but you will be a slightly weaker at being a barbarian than your half-orc friend, because you are playing against type." Given both the sheer amount of races/subraces/lineages and classes/subclasses that be mixed and matched and the kinds of characters newer players want to create, I think that's probably a less useful design goal. However, I don't think that leads to homogeneity, where the halfling barbarian may as well be the half-orc barbarian; there's still room to accentuate race via special abilities/feats so that the former and latter feel different without either one being worse.

 

[LadyElect]

Rogues are not inherently more dexterous, though. More dexterous people become successful rogues(most of the rest get caught and jailed/killed), so that's what we see. It's like looking at astrophysicists and thinking that learning astrophysics gives you intelligence points, rather than the discipline requiring a high intelligence to begin with.

That’s a fair assessment. I can understand that providing the split mechanically as well.

 

[Malmuria]

Rogues are not inherently more dexterous, though. More dexterous people become successful rogues(most of the rest get caught and jailed/killed), so that's what we see. It's like looking at astrophysicists and thinking that learning astrophysics gives you intelligence points, rather than the discipline requiring a high intelligence to begin with.

practice makes perfect? As in, all classes get ASI every 4 levels (as well as tons of new abilities that suggest improvement).

 

[LadyElect]

the discipline requiring a high intelligence to begin with.

Curiously, in this regard, do you think that the initial class option of character creation should involve the same prerequisites outlined with multiclassing? Ie: rolling low or placing the 8 or 10 standard array into dex should prevent running a Rogue?