D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

You could literally have a table where someone had no bonus, another with only a +1, etc. all the way through +5. And the game still would run just fine. D&D is incredibly flexible. You obviously, know this.

Uh, yeah, and so do I. And I bet a lot of the other people arguing for racial ASIs do, too.

I suspect it's a misunderstanding of the argument for floating ASIs that would lead one to think that some people don't know this.
 

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Please note how YOU (not I) are adding negative adjectives to powergaming ? This is really part of the problem.

Haven't read your whole post yet, but I was just being colorful/silly. Didn't mean to escalate tension. Sorry.

Back to reading.
 

Ok, so let's say that you have a dirty, stinkin' powergamer at your table, who understandably is trying to keep this fact quiet. If you are enforcing racial ASIs, isn't this person just going to pick a race:class combination that has ASI synergy? Or were you thinking that if the powergamer' munchkin scheming get's thwarted they'll go for the sub-optimal race? (I doubt it.)

On the other hand, if you allowed floating ASIs, maybe they would have picked a different race for roleplaying reasons, because they wouldn't have felt boxed into one decision.

Maybe. Or maybe it would unfold like this:

Powergamer at the table : racial ASIs => must match class and race to account for it, and choose between the racial powers and the correct ability score, reducing his margin to powergame. floating ASIs : match classe and race based on whatever racial ability is better, then assign floating ASIs to his class and write a background explaining why he's totally wanting to play an aracockroach despite being unable to get the race name right (he discovered it on rpgbot's guide).

Roleplayer at the table : racial ASIs => is enabled and happy to play against type, and reaching 20 STR for his halfling at level 8 is mechanically fitting to reflect his struggle to become the strongest humanoid, instead of being able to get it at the start. Floating ASIs => is enabled and happy to start with a 17 in his starting stat and roleplay an extremely competent paragon of his people, playing into the archetype.

I don't see any combination of an ASI method and roleplayer vs powergamer can result in a 100% systematic superiority for one or the other -- or that people can be divided into those two groups with a strong divide. One can powergame and roleplay at the same time.
 

No, I'm not. Because I never once said they discouraged, in fact I literally just said they did not actively discourage. However, that is not a requirement of setting an expected baseline. You can have an expected baseline and never once punish people to actively discourage them from the opposite. Case in point: Credit Cards. I'd say that it is the expected baseline that most Americans own a credit card. You aren't actively discouraged from not owning a credit card. You aren't punished if you don't have a credit card. There are simply benefits that encourage you to have one. That doesn't mean that you can't get by without a credit card, that not having one is non-viable, it is simply a baseline expectation.
If you say, "did not actively discourage," you are saying that they passively discouraged. If you had really meant that they did not discourage, the word "active" would not have been present. You would have just said, "they did not discourage." Words mean things.
They probably went with that originally, and people didn't like it because they never liked it. And then they had to account for bards and warlocks and arcane tricksters who could all get moderately armored. Then they had to face the question of whether or not it was fair to exclude druids, rangers, clerics and paladins from having the penalty. Then they probably realized that with lightly, moderately and heavily armored that wizards and sorcerers could get it.

But at no point did they say that they wanted dwarf wizards and therefore removed the armor penalty. Because even with the armor penalty you could have dwarf wizards, because hill dwarves. It was a consequence of their choice, but it wasn't the driving factor. Heck, it is likely they removed it simply because 4e removed it and adding back in a penalty no one liked didn't appeal to them. Just like Dual-Weapon Wielding is no longer penalized.
Armored wizards are against type. They encouraged armored wizards, including dwarven ones, buy allowing wizards to cast in everything up to and including plate mail.
No, I don't. You don't need the designers of the game talking about their expectations when the games design clearly shows it.
It doesn't clearly show it. A bunch of assumption based on arbitrarily liking 65%, instead of 60% does not clear design intent make.
Yes, it absolutely is. Everything in the game has to work out that the Base Human with their +1 to everything and no feats is balanced and feels like they don't fall behind. Heck, even your assertions are assuming humans as the origin point. "Elves are more dexterous" "More dexterous than what?" Humans. Everything revolves around humans.
No, it absolutely is not. It's balanced around ALL races, not humans. And so okay, since you seem to think that because I'm using humans to compare elves to that they designed the game around humans for me, I'll switch it up. Elves are more dexterous on average than dwarves! Elves are more dexterous on average than orcs! I can keep going, but I'm sure you get the point. It's not about humans. It's about game balance as a whole, which means all races.

It would have been stupid for them to balance the game around any one race and then after they were done, created the other races around the first race. Instead they would have just set baseline math and created every race, including humans, around that baseline.
You've never read this? "You can make a rogue quickly by following these suggestions. First, Dexterity should be your highest ability score."

See, I'll admit, I was speaking loosely, and could be misunderstood. By "max out" I didn't mean, "get a 20". I meant achieve the maximum result you can for first level.
They don't say that. At face value, if I make an elven rogue with the array and put a 15 into charisma and a 13 into dex, with the +2 dex is my highest score. They didn't say, "You can make a rogue quickly by following these suggestions. First, you should make your Dexterity the highest possible number you can achieve." They are not assuming that you will choose a dex race when making that statement. 15 is the highest(unless you roll) that you can place.
Why would they do that? Halflings boost either charisma or constitution in addition to dexterity. To get three +2's you would have to make either intelligence or wisdom your highest stat, followed by constitution or charisma, with dexterity being your third highest stat before applying your ASI. And since you are playing a rogue, the first advice you get is "First, Dexterity should be your highest ability score." And by level 4 they are expecting you to have an 18 dex, not a 16.
No. If I end up with 2 15s and a 14, both 15s are my highest stat.

And now you're trying to tell me that they are dictating where you put your ASIs? Just no. they are not expecting an 18 by level 4 or 20 by level 8. Read ability score improvement. It says score or scores of your choice. There's not even a dex suggestion like you quote above there for you to rely on for this assumption of yours.

You are going to need to quote the designers or game saying straight out that they expect +3 for it to be anything other than your(and the others making the claim) assumption.
Remember, I'm not talking about a 14 in your tertiary stat, I'm talking your prime.
So am I. If the game is easy with a 14(and it is), then a 14 is good. Not viable. Good.
Really? Then show me a class and race combo that is in type (has ASIs that supports the class's prime stat) and follows the build advice in the PHB by putting their highest stat (a 15) into their prime stat, but that still ends up with a 15 in their prime stat.
I don't need to. Clerics are in type for dwarves. Dwarven clerics are a staple. Note, I'm talking about dwarves as a whole, because that's what the type encompasses. The type is not hill dwarf Clerics. It's dwarven clerics. Mountain dwarf clerics are as in type as hill dwarf clerics and mountain dwarves get no wisdom bonus. And done. You've been proven wrong.
That's because racial biology doesn't exist. There is only biology.
Um. Yes it does exist. Heck, even in real life you can specialize in animal biology, human biology, etc. Because different species have different biologies. Elven biology would be different from dwarven biology which is different than gnome biology.
 
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Haven't read your whole post yet, but I was just being colorful/silly. Didn't mean to escalate tension. Sorry.

Back to reading.

No worries, hopefully you will see that it is part of the problem, so much that it coloured my answer. Still, I hope you will see where this all leads. ;)
 

Please note how YOU (not I) are adding negative adjectives to powergaming ? This is really part of the problem. I have no issue with powergamers in and of themselves, nor with powergaming, I have been quite a rabid one at some points in my roleplaying history and some of my best friends and long term DMs/Players are.

I am just wary of the effects of powergaming on tables, especially those with mixed tastes and objectives, and have found that by technically limiting it, I have much better tables and ambiance, and much more satisfied players overall.



As I've demonstrated, it's stupid to do this. First, it's really obvious to any DM with a bit of experience, but more importantly, you are just trying to game in a way that will not bring you satisfaction. Be open about your tastes, and the DM will cater for them as long as there is no conflict with the taste of the rest of the table.



Of course they won't, but because the system is reasonably balanced as it is, the discrepancies between an optimised character and a non optimised one are not going to cause trouble at the table, with jealousy, spotlight hogging, etc.



The thing is that powergamers are usually clever people, for one, and it's not because they powergame that they can't roleplay or don't enjoy it. However, if roleplay was really the intent of you choosing a race/class combination for a 100 sessions campaign, would you really care about that +1 ?

I don't disagree with any of this.

I guess my point is that if you have the obnoxious sort of powergamer at your table (and I agree they exist; I've encountered the same behaviors you have) then insisting on racials ASIs isn't going to keep those people from behaving that way.

And if you have the more subtle sort of powergamer...let's call them an "optimizer"...they are still going to pick an optimal character, within whatever boundaries you establish as DM. Which, in the case of racial ASIs, is simply going to be one of the traditional archetypes. They're probably not going to go "against type".

And the thing about floating ASIs is that it doesn't actually open up new power-gamey options. A dwarven wizard with Int 17 is not more poweful than a gnome wizard with Int 17 in any kind of meaningful way. (I mean, maybe there's an edge case where somebody figures out that half-orc racials have some clever synergy with a particular wizard build, but for the most part nothing has as much impact as the primary attribute.). It seems that it's the philosophy behind the change...or, more accurately, your belief in the philosophy behind the change...that you dislike, not the actual impact on character power.

All I'm saying is:
- If you have an obnoxious powergamer, the only viable solution is to not play with them
- If you have a less obnoxious optimizer, floating ASIs actually encourage them to think more about roleplaying
 

They don't need 6e. My only issue is people continually bashing the floating scores as terrible just because they want character concepts they don't like to be punished with lower scores because they aren't playing to stereotypes.
You do realize that all of us talking about that are talking about the floating ASI becoming the norm for the future, right?

Nobody is saying that it's a big bad horrible thing right now, since right now racial bonuses are still present with the floating ASI being optional.
 

One can powergame and roleplay at the same time.

Yes, and I think this is key. Too many of the arguments against floating ASIs seem to be based on the belief that a player is one or the other. When really what goes on, I believe, is that for a lot of people the instinct to powergame wins out on this one decision (probably because, as has been noted, the mechanical differences between the races really are quite minimal). Whereas more flexibility in character creation disentangling race from attributes would let the roleplaying instinct win more often.
 


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