D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Maxperson]

Yeah, it is odd. Logic jumps on both sides. But like so many things in D&D, if you analyze it too much, the entire system is built from a house of cards. The smallest investigation can knock it over.

Actually, the vast majority of those here in favor of racial bonuses have been arguing what it means to them and then stating that the Tasha's option is a good thing for the people who want to use that. Then the vast majority of those here in favor of Tasha's are arguing what it means to them and then stating that racial bonuses are good for those people who want to use those.

Then we have the two extremes. @Chaosmancer who argued that not liking Tasha's is saying that it should not be an option for anyone to use and that we racial bonus supporters are trying to take the Tasha's option away. And @Lyxen who is arguing that if you care for the floating bonus at all, you must(it's not even a possibility in his mind that you might not) be optimizing every single aspect of your PC and be a big bad evil power gamer.

Take out the extremes and we're really all in almost complete agreement.

 

[Scott Christian]

Actually, the vast majority of those here in favor of racial bonuses have been arguing what it means to them and then stating that the Tasha's option is a good thing for the people who want to use that. Then the vast majority of those here in favor of Tasha's are arguing what it means to them and then stating that racial bonuses are good for those people who want to use those.

Then we have the two extremes. @Chaosmancer who argued that not liking Tasha's is saying that it should not be an option for anyone to use and that we racial bonus supporters are trying to take the Tasha's option away. And @Lyxen who is arguing that if you care for the floating bonus at all, you must(it's not even a possibility in his mind that you might not) be optimizing every single aspect of your PC and be a big bad evil power gamer.

Take out the extremes and we're really all in almost complete agreement.

Agreed.

I would add that some (and I am guilty of this) come with too wide a lens. Meaning, I try to look too far down the road at what might get gained or lost. And that adds to the confusion sometimes, although it is not intentional.

 

[Lyxen]

Well, sorry that I am my groups forever DM and only get to play every few years. That is why I didn't respond to your post with my character idea.

Look, I don't doubt your good faith in this, it's just that every single time I ask people claiming to have unoptimised characters, they either don't have any, or the examples provided are always about characters that they have developed and really want to play. I've never ever seen an example of a character that was not optimised to the gills.

And I think that it goes with that powergaming problem inherited from 3e, which is that these characters would be derided by the powergamers.

 

[Maxperson]

Look, I don't doubt your good faith in this, it's just that every single time I ask people claiming to have unoptimised characters, they either don't have any, or the examples provided are always about characters that they have developed and really want to play. I've never ever seen an example of a character that was not optimised to the gills.

I showed you two. Bladesingers =/= optimization on their own and the only optimized choice I made with it was in picking high elf. It seems like you're equating any choice that is good with optimization, even if that choice was made without any optimized knowledge or for story reasons. That's not how optimizing works. We don't have to go study powergaming manuals in order to be able to only pick deliberately bad options in order to avoid being big bad optimizing powergamers.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Look, I don't doubt your good faith in this, it's just that every single time I ask people claiming to have unoptimised characters, they either don't have any, or the examples provided are always about characters that they have developed and really want to play. I've never ever seen an example of a character that was not optimised to the gills.

Does my vHuman rogue with optimized attributes, but who uses daggers instead of short swords, not count as an example of "partially optimized"? Or does it have to be a post-Tasha's character who uses floating ASIs but otherwise doesn't optimize racial abilities according to that guide and that has actually been played not just created?

If the latter....why?

 

[Lyxen]

And @Lyxen who is arguing that if you care for the floating bonus at all, you must(it's not even a possibility in his mind that you might not) be optimizing every single aspect of your PC and be a big bad evil power gamer.

And after this huge strawman that you apparently need to think that you need to win some points in the conversation, I don't think any more need to be said.

I showed you two. Bladesingers =/= optimization on their own and the only optimized choice I made with it was in picking high elf.

And your initial stats considering the fact that you rolled and that, unsurprisingly, you rolled very well. By the way, I'm still waiting for any player to show me a character that he rolled and actually played despite badly rolling for stats. And when I compound the fact this with the fact that both of the classes combinations that you chose to play are amongst the highest powered in the whole game, I don't think I need anymore proof that you will certainly be putting any Floating ASIs into the most powerful race/class combination that you can find.

At this stage, I will wait to see if you ever create an average character for pure roleplay/story reason, and actually play it. Until then, you know what I think of your style of play. Again, I don't think it's bad or evil, as long as the people that you are playing with are playing in the same style. But I really hope that some day you will have the opportunity to play in a different style, and that hopefully you will like it as well.

It seems like you're equating any choice that is good with optimization, even if that choice was made without any optimized knowledge or for story reasons. That's not how optimizing works. We don't have to go study powergaming manuals in order to be able to only pick deliberately bad options in order to avoid being big bad optimizing powergamers.

And no one is speaking about deliberately bad options either. Just about making some choices for background/story/roleplay reasons rather than for pure power.

 

[Bill Zebub]

And no one is speaking about deliberately bad options either. Just about making some choices for background/story/roleplay reasons rather than for pure power.

Great. So I'm looking forward to your response to my dagger-wielding rogue.

 

[Lyxen]

Great. So I'm looking forward to your response to my dagger-wielding rogue.

Can I ask why the character was created that way ?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Can I ask why the character was created that way ?

I just didn't like the image of big weapons sticking out while she was sneaking around and climbing walls. She has more daggers for throwing, instead of a short bow, for the same reason. Even though a short bow is superior in every way.

 

[FrogReaver]

I showed you two. Bladesingers =/= optimization on their own and the only optimized choice I made with it was in picking high elf. It seems like you're equating any choice that is good with optimization, even if that choice was made without any optimized knowledge or for story reasons. That's not how optimizing works. We don't have to go study powergaming manuals in order to be able to only pick deliberately bad options in order to avoid being big bad optimizing powergamers.

I don’t think we can judge intent. What we can say is that whatever your motivations you picked a race and class combo that was very optimized.

IMO. If you really picked regardless of optimization then you’d end up with just as many or maybe even more characters whose race and class don’t align as you do with ones that do. I don’t know if that’s true of you or not but I think it’s plausible that many people that don’t go out of their way to optimize end up with races that complement their classes to a greater proportion than they end up with races that don’t. That tells me there’s more going on - maybe even subconsciously - than those people realize when they are explaining their actions.