About Enervation

[Alader]

Hi. A question about the Enervation spell.
Among other effects one has
"Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack. "

Now suppose Enervation is successfully cast on a multiclass spellcaster,
say Cleric 3/Wizard 6
and the die comes out with a 3
So the target should lose 3 spells or spell slots from his highest available level.
Right but for which class ? Who chooses ?
Thanx

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now suppose Enervation is successfully cast on a multiclass spellcaster,
say Cleric 3/Wizard 6
and the die comes out with a 3
So the target should lose 3 spells or spell slots from his highest available level.
Right but for which class ? Who chooses ?

His highest available level is 3rd, and he only has wizard spells of that level... so it's wizard spells he loses. (However, his caster level will be 0 for his cleric spells, and 0 is below the minimum caster level for any cleric spell...)

If he were a Cleric 6/Wizard 6, he would have both cleric and wizard spells of his highest available level, so he could choose which 3rd level spell is lost from one class or the other.

-Hyp.

 

[rgard]

His highest available level is 3rd, and he only has wizard spells of that level.

If he were a Cleric 6/Wizard 6, he would have both cleric and wizard spells of his highest available level, so he could choose which 3rd level spell is lost from one class or the other.

-Hyp.

Agreed, I would leave the decision to the player of the pc hit by the enervation.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[AvangionQ]

Cleric 3 / Wizard 6 ... wow, even as an example, what an inefficient multi-class combination! I would have figured for sure that you'd go Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 ... then, for the moment, the enervation would affect the top level spells of both your wizard and cleric classes, but next level up, you could be ready to counter with Death Ward (PHB 217) ...

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would have figured for sure that you'd go Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 ... then, for the moment, the enervation would affect the top level spells of both your wizard and cleric classes...

I'd say "would potentially affect", rather than "would affect", since in theory he might lose three 3rd level wizard spells... still leaving his cleric spells unaffected.

Unless he'd already cast some, of course, in which case it's likely he'd run out of 3rd level wizard spells before the third negative level...

-Hyp.

 

[eamon]

So you're saying your caster level is affected by the "gaining" of a negative level. (I think that "gaining" wrt negative levels is just hilarious ). Negative levels do impose a -1 penalty on calculations using your "effective level", and the text in enervate would suggest this effects caster level too, but it's not stated in the SRD, and not stated in the PHB section on negative levels either. I guess it's just common sense it would apply to caster levels too, but if you happen to have an explicit reference... ...I'ld be happy to see it ;-).

Further, how do you determine minimum caster level? Negative levels make your spells less powerful, and if your "effective" caster level is 0, then potentially the duration of some spells might be 0, but things like cure moderate wounds don't have a minimum - are you suggesting those become impossible too? And what should happen if your effective caster level drops to below 0? Say you're a fighter 10/cleric 1 with 2 negative levels. Is your caster level then truly effectively -1? What happens when you cast cure light wounds?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So you're saying your caster level is affected by the "gaining" of a negative level. (I think that "gaining" wrt negative levels is just hilarious ). Negative levels do impose a -1 penalty on calculations using your "effective level", and the text in enervate would suggest this effects caster level too, but it's not stated in the SRD, and not stated in the PHB section on negative levels either.

Condition summary:
Each negative level gives a creature the following penalties: –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; loss of 5 hit points; and –1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).

What determines the power, duration, and other details of spells? Their caster level.

Further, how do you determine minimum caster level?

What we know from PHB p171 is that:
a/ Mialee the wizard cannot voluntarily lower her caster level below 5th when she casts Fireball, and
b/ The reason for this is that 5th is the minimum level for a wizard to cast Fireball.

a/ doesn't come into play with negative levels - it's not a voluntary lowering. But b/ does. If 5th is the minimum level for a wizard to cast Fireball, and your caster level is 3rd due to negative levels, then your caster level is below the minimum level for a wizard to cast Fireball.

Negative levels make your spells less powerful, and if your "effective" caster level is 0, then potentially the duration of some spells might be 0, but things like cure moderate wounds don't have a minimum - are you suggesting those become impossible too?

Right, because your caster level is below the minimum level for a cleric to cast Cure Moderate Wounds (3).

-Hyp.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

Do the rules specifically state the PC chooses which spell is lost from his/her highest level? I say the DM or PC rolls randomly, that way the PC doesn't get to choose a spell that he/she doesn't care about-- gives the enervation a little more fear factor, and eliminates a little bit of the PC cheese factor...

 

[werk]

Do the rules specifically state the PC chooses which spell is lost from his/her highest level? I say the DM or PC rolls randomly, that way the PC doesn't get to choose a spell that he/she doesn't care about-- gives the enervation a little more fear factor, and eliminates a little bit of the PC cheese factor...

So the DM gets to pick which spells monsters lose.

I guess that could be good or bad depending on your party's tactics.

I'd probably do it as a random die roll, like most things of this nature.

 

[Infiniti2000]

What we know from PHB p171 is that:
a/ Mialee the wizard cannot voluntarily lower her caster level below 5th when she casts Fireball, and
b/ The reason for this is that 5th is the minimum level for a wizard to cast Fireball.

a/ doesn't come into play with negative levels - it's not a voluntary lowering. But b/ does. If 5th is the minimum level for a wizard to cast Fireball, and your caster level is 3rd due to negative levels, then your caster level is below the minimum level for a wizard to cast Fireball.

But, you have yet to prove that the caster level is, in fact, 0. Reread your quote and tell me which one of those "for determining" points applies to CL prior to casting the spell. The only one I think you could argue is the ambiguous "other details" and that is so vague as to not support either side, or perhaps support both sides.

Note also the difference between your quote (enervation) and actual energy drain or the glossary definition of negative level: "-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level)."

It's also interesting to note that it's energy drain that allows the victim to choose: "(If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.)" Enervation doesn't specify.

Personally, I advocate throwing out all the text about negative levels in enervation and just use the glossary definition. Then, the weirdness that Hyp brings up doesn't show itself and what happens to highest level spells is clear (the victim chooses).