Acid Arrow's Secondary Attack

[Venthrac]

Picture, if you will, a band of heroes battling a Young Green Dragon. 19 squares away from the beastie is a Wizard. This Wizard casts Acid Arrow and hits. Kersplash, fizzz, ouch.

On the opposite side of the Dragon from that Wizsard, and also adjacent to it, are two allies of this Wizard. The Dragon is a large monster, and it's base is 5 squares long. Thus, those two characters are 25 squares away from the Wizard, well outside the range of Acid Arrow (which has a range of 20).

Now, here's the tricky bit. When Acid Arrow hits, it makes a secondary attack with a target of "Each creature adjacent to the primary target". Our two heroes adjacent to the Dragon qualify in this case.

However, on page 59, under the rules for "Secondary Attack and Secondary Target", there is this rule: "Unless otherwise noted, the range of a secondary (or tertiary) attack is the same as for the attack that preceded it." Our two heroes in front of the Dragon do not fall within that range, since they are five squares beyond Acid Arrow's range.

• Is this a case of "specific beats general", where the specific power text overrules the general range rule of secondary attacks?
• Does Acid Arrow's "each creature adjacent to the target" text qualify as "unless otherwise noted" in the rule for secondary target range?
• Or, since no different range number is specified for the secondary attack, do we assume it shares the 20-square range of Acid Arrow, and thus cannot target anything beyond 20 squares with the second effect?

What do you folks think?

 

[keterys]

I think you mean that they're 21 squares away (19 to dragon, 2 squares of dragon). It's still out of range, but not nearly as much.

That's an interesting question, though.

 

[Venthrac]

When we played, the DM made the Dragon five squares long. I don't know the rules for Dragon base sizes, but even if the characters were only 21 squares away, the rules question still applies

 

[bjorn2bwild]

When we played, the DM made the Dragon five squares long. I don't know the rules for Dragon base sizes, but even if the characters were only 21 squares away, the rules question still applies

Five squares?

As far as the range of the secondary damage, wouldn't they still be in range because the origin square of the power was in range?

p271 describes the origin square as being a square within range, but makes no claim that all of the area attack's squares must be within that range.

Think about this: If you have an area burst 5, ranged 20 attack, do you have to plant the origin square within 14 squares of you (to allow the entire area affected to be within range)? No, you can place it up to 20 squares away.

p272 validates this.

 

[Venthrac]

Yes, it was five squares long.

Let me bring the discussion back to the rules question, and not focus on the size of the dragon. Forget the scenario I described, and focus instead of the notion that a friendly character is both 1) out of range of the Acid Arrow power and 2) adjacent to a monster that was successful hit by Acid Arrow.

As for the question of an "origin square", I'm not sure I understand you. Acid Arrow is not a burst power, so it simply travels on a line from the caster to the target. It's origin square would be the caster, I assume, who was at the time over 20 squares away.

 

[webrunner]

I would say that 'each creature adjacent to the primary target' is a declaration of range and scope (the same way that 'each creature within burst' is) overriding the general rule.

Adjacent is, generally, a range specifier. The first attack's range is 20, the 2nd attack's range is "adjacent to primary target"

 

[bjorn2bwild]

Yeah I presented this kinda wonky the first time around. Let me clarify what I was trying to go for, and then present a better interpretation.

Ok, acid arrow hits a target and then has secondary attacks on every target adjacent to the primary target. For purposes of this discussion, it can be handled similar to area burst 1 attack. (assuming your primary target occupies one square).

The origin square in this case being the primary target's square.


I suppose it might be useful to think of it in different terms than what I presented. Every power that has a secondary attack has a set of rules unique to both the primary and secondary attack. This includes a different range requirement.

In the case of acid arrow, if the primary target is in range, then all adjacent creatures can be subject to the secondary attack because the secondary attack does not have the same range requirement as the original attack. The range requirement for the secondary attack is "adjacent creatures to the primary target"

Does that make more sense?


edit: wow... ninja'd so hard it hurts.

 

[cockroachman3178]

First, I thought that a Large Creature has a space of 2x2 (PH 282).

And secon, Bjorntobwild is correct I think in that as long as the primary target is within range, then any and all secondary targets (in this case only though) can be hit with the secondary attack.

I think its a matter of flavor. Acid Arrow is bound to splash adjacent figures as goes the flavor text:
... and bursts in a spray of sizzling acid.

I think that in this case, "Specific" beats "General" as stated on pg 11 PH.

 

[Mahlice]

Alright. I think the important question here is not nearly a confusion on a creature covering 1 square, but in a situation where you are fighting something that is Gargantuan (takes up 4x4 or larger).

Monsters of this size generate a much more significant area then a single square creature. That being said, all Adjacent 20+ possible targets then would be subject to this 'splash'?

Obviously, as we find often, rules are not always in tune with a logical or realistic result, it does still seem odd that an effect such as this would significantly grow in size with a larger target absorbing its mass.

Following Key Words, Acid Arrow is not listed as blast or area, but simply effects 'adjacent' targets. Maybe that end result should be reviewed and corrected in the future to make the end result make more sense, by having it a Burst 1 effect. Just food for thought.

 

[Mort_Q]

Another interpretation.

If there is enough acid conjured with the spell to have what effectively amounts to splash damage, then wouldn't a large or larger creature possibly get hit multiple times? I mean every square it occupies adjacent to the target square should get it's own attack roll?

I'm not suggesting that this is the correct interpretation, or even a good house rule, just that you could do this multiple ways.