Adamantite Bypassing DR?

[The Sigil]

Re: Re: Precisely...

Technically speaking, a masterwork weapon has a +1 unnamed bonus which doesn't stack with enhancement bonuses.

Hong, often you are funny, but unfortunately... oh, wait, you made a valid point. Dang!

Hong, you are funny and this time I am rolling on the floor... you are absolutely correct and caught me making a bad assumption.

My possibly bad assumption:

Because a masterwork weapon's (unnamed) bonus does not stack with magical enhancement bonuses, I assumed it was indeed an enhancement bonus. It is not necessarily so. All of my preceding posts should be qualified by that.

--The Sigil

 

[Caliban]

Re: Precisely...

Precisely...

A mithral (and therefore masterwork) weapon has a +1 (natural) enhancement bonus.

Sorry, but no. Mithril is "considered" masterwork for creation times and for enchantment purposes, but it doesn't have the +1 attack bonus of a normal masterwork item. It has the mithril attributes instead.

Also, masterwork weapons do not have an enhancement bonus. They have an "unnamed bonus" on the attack rolls that will not stack with an enhancement bonus.

Just to re-iterate my take on this:
--By a strict reading of the rules, I agree that technically they do not directly differentiate between a natural enhancement bonus and a magical enhancement bonus.
--However, I believe that it was intended that only magical enhancement bonuses penetrate DR. (When it refers to "usually a magic weapon" being used to penetrate DR, I believe that is a reference to magical enhancement bonuses. But again, it is not direct or clear.)

As someone posted earlier, Monte Cooke confirms this, and then when on to say that it would not be unbalancing to allow adamantite to bypass DR based on its natural enhancement bonus. I have to agree, non-magical adamantite weapons have never been that common in any game I've played. In most campaigns this would never come up.

 

[Bonedagger]

How dare you!

Why do people resent the idea about a metal being magical from a "natural" source? If it says the enchantment is a natural enchantment why then get focused on the source. An enchantment is no longer just an enchantment apperantly. Now you are looking on the background. You bastards! You metal-racists!

I long for the day when an enchanmennt no longer has to be discriminated because of its origine.

I request equal rights for all enchanments!

May this day not be forgotten.

 

[Caliban]

Re: How dare you!

Why do people resent the idea about a metal being magical from a "natural" source? If it says the enchantment is a natural enchantment why then get focused on the source. An enchantment is no longer just an enchantment apperantly. Now you are looking on the background. You bastards! You metal-racists!

I long for the day when an enchanmennt no longer has to be discriminated because of its origine.

I request equal rights for all enchanments!

May this day not be forgotten.

Well, adamantite is specifically "not magical" because it retains it's enhancement bonus even within an anti-magic field.

It gets an enhancement bonus based solely on being incredibly hard and durable, not from any magical enhancement. That is why the Sage ruled that it doesn't bypass DR (because that requires magic) and that it can sunder weapons with an equal or lesser magical enhancement bonus (because that is just based on how hard the material is, not any magical qualities it might have.)

But none of this is clearly spelled out in the core rules.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: How dare you!

That is why the Sage ruled that it doesn't bypass DR (because that requires magic) and that it can sunder weapons with an equal or lesser magical enhancement bonus (because that is just based on how hard the material is, not any magical qualities it might have.)

But none of this is clearly spelled out in the core rules.

I belong to that group who find that the Sages rulings don't have any value. Did he come up with an argument (As in other than I think so ) for this? That would at least be something of use.

 

[Xarlen]

Re: Re: How dare you!

Magical weapons are the True enchantment bonuses! They're Magical! They are what weapons were Ment to be!

Forget this whole business about being null in an anti-magic field! Or having hardness! You can put special abilities on a magic weapon. It can bypass DR. Therefore it is the Superior enchantment bonus. Your adamantite weapons cannot compare. Except in an anti-magic field or when sundering.


I am not a metalist. It's just Obvious the core rules are Magical Biased. So, Nyah.

Now, take your extra hard, Unmagical, durable weapons, and go prevent sundering.

 

[Black Omega]

Re: Re: Precisely...

As someone posted earlier, Monte Cooke confirms this, and then when on to say that it would not be unbalancing to allow adamantite to bypass DR based on its natural enhancement bonus.

This is correct. I'm only slightly surprised getting Monte's statement actually made the debate more heated.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: How dare you!

I belong to that group who find that the Sages rulings don't have any value. Did he come up with an argument (As in other than I think so ) for this? That would at least be something of use.

I just explained how it makes sense.

I really don't think it matters except in an academic sense. I certainly don't think it really affects game balance one way or the other.

 

[Kraedin]

I've decided just to reiterate my points, and abandon this thread. My rules quotes for the following statements can be seen in my previous posts.

1)From the description of the Adamantine Battleaxe, Dagger, and Breastplate in the DMG, you can infer from the wording of natural +X enhancement bonus (which appears 4 times in the DMG) that adamantine indeed gives an enhancement bonus, and the "natural" simply refers to the source. I.e., it is a enhancement bonus natural to the material, not a bonus of the type "natural enhancement".

2)The requirements for sundering, beating DR, and adding weapon special abilites requires an enhancement bonus. It should be noted that the most common refutation of this is the "usually a magic weapon" clause in the DR special ability descritipion in the DMG, please take note that it does say "usually".

Conclusions: If an adamantine indeed has an enhancement bonus, as I belive it does, then it does work for sundering, DR, and special weapon abilities.

If it has a "natural enhancement" bonus, as others contend, then it does not work for sundering, DR, or special weapon abilities. On the other hand, this interpretation allows for +11 weapons and +12 armor (effectivly), so adamantine still has it's uses, and is not "worthless", as I have heard some people claim.

The Sage's ruling, that adamantine can sunder weapons, but cannot beat DR, I consider a rule-0, with no grounds in the offical rules.

 

[Caliban]

I've decided just to reiterate my points, and abandon this thread. My rules quotes for the following statements can be seen in my previous posts.

1)From the description of the Adamantine Battleaxe, Dagger, and Breastplate in the DMG, you can infer from the wording of natural +X enhancement bonus (which appears 4 times in the DMG) that adamantine indeed gives an enhancement bonus, and the "natural" simply refers to the source. I.e., it is a enhancement bonus natural to the material, not a bonus of the type "natural enhancement".

2)The requirements for sundering, beating DR, and adding weapon special abilites requires an enhancement bonus. It should be noted that the most common refutation of this is the "usually a magic weapon" clause in the DR special ability descritipion in the DMG, please take note that it does say "usually".

Conclusions: If an adamantine indeed has an enhancement bonus, as I belive it does, then it does work for sundering, DR, and special weapon abilities.

If it has a "natural enhancement" bonus, as others contend, then it does not work for sundering, DR, or special weapon abilities. On the other hand, this interpretation allows for +11 weapons and +12 armor (effectivly), so adamantine still has it's uses, and is not "worthless", as I have heard some people claim.

The Sage's ruling, that adamantine can sunder weapons, but cannot beat DR, I consider a rule-0, with no grounds in the offical rules.

You are a bit dense, aren't you?