Adding sorcerer levels to a Dragon

[jgsugden]

The CR system is a 'best guess' scenario. An iron golem versus a party of 4 wizards is a far different encounter than an iron golem versus 4 fighters. Assigning 1 CR value to a beast without considering the 'entire' picture will often result in CRs that are not reflective of the difficulty in defeating the foe.

I wouldn't sweat over the difference of CR 15 or CR 16. If you think the CR for a monster is odd, just adjust it. Strict adherence to the CR system will sometimes result in ridiculous amounts of experience for easy foes or virtually no experience for very challenging foes.

 

[James McMurray]

Because the CR system isn't very accurate. Is a 27th level character really twice as powerful as a 25th level one?

No, but givent he proper Epic feats at 26th and 27th level (or god PrC if it isn't a straight-classed character) and it'll certainly use up a larger portion of the party's resources. That's all CR measures. Just because 2 CR 25s is ECL 27 doesn't mean that one CR 27 is the same as 2 CR 25s. It just means that they present approximately the same challenge.

Is a Cleric19/Sorceror1 really 20th level in the way that a Cleric20 is?

In many ways hes even more powerful than a cleric 20. He gets a few low level spells the cleric normally wouldn't have (Shield and True Strike are nice). He loses a few spell slots, but opens up almost all arcane staves and wands for use. He also gets a familiar, and if its a weasel its worth +2 to reflex saves, thereby shoring up a cleric's weak spot.

As jgsugden said, CR is a guideline of a critter's power level. If your party makeup is weird or you make inferior for the creature (i.e. picking spells for flavor instead of utility), you'll skew the challenge rating of the creature. IT should then be worth more or less XP.

 

[jessemock]

Just because 2 CR 25s is ECL 27 doesn't mean that one CR 27 is the same as 2 CR 25s. It just means that they present approximately the same challenge.

Right--except they likely won't present approximately the same challenge.

In many ways hes even more powerful than a cleric 20.

Which would mean that this character is not the equivalent of a Cleric20? Well; okay.

As jgsugden said, CR is a guideline of a critter's power level. If your party makeup is weird or you make inferior for the creature (i.e. picking spells for flavor instead of utility), you'll skew the challenge rating of the creature. IT should then be worth more or less XP.

Actually, that skews the challenge that the party presents, not the CR of the creature; the creature remains the same. But if someone advances (or otherwise changes) a creature, there is not always a clear process for establishing its new CR for a standard party.

This leaves us with what jgsugden said:

If you think the CR for a monster is odd, just adjust it.

 

[Scion]

Did you read my example spells? If you hamstring your dragon by choosing crap spells for him, of course it won't be worth a CR. But if you give him useful combat spells or spells that allow him to escape his foes, then his combat abilities are most definitely enhanced. Heck, just giving him Haste will make him faster than anything on the planet and give him an extra bite to snatch with.

Be sure to tell your players afterward that you upped the dragon's power but didn't up its CR, and therefore didn't up its treasure or XP value. I'm sure that they'll be happy about that... :\

I read your example spells, now pick one (only one, he only gets one) and tell me how it will really matter in the battle. Most/all of the ones you listed are nice, but will rarely be worth casting. Generally they are either short duration or not terribly powerful. He would be better off breathing, full attacking, moving (at an incredible speed!) into a better position.

Would you change the Dragons CR up from 14 to 15 if you added a few points of natural armor and gave it a couple of minor abilities? I doubt it. Why would you do it here when the level of sorc gives it 'less' than that??

It is all about relative power. The amount of power he gets from that level is negligable, sure it is there, but it is not worth a full point of CR.

Like I said earlier, that is a problem with the CR system, it rounds out a lot of things. Sure he 'might' be slightly harder, but no where near enough to push him up a full category.

After all, we are talking about one group with 7th level spells, and then the next having 8th level spells (not to mention all of the other changes from 14 to 15). The dragon got one third level spell and pretty much nothing else, the party got 8th level spells. Do you see the disparity?

It isnt that I dont agree that the dragon gained 'some' power, he just didnt gain enough to be a full CR higher. Not by a long shot.

 

[Will]

This is similar to the problem with multiclassing spellcasters. That is, power that increases to the side without offering much to help the character. Having spellcasting of lower power but more diversity isn't quite the same, but it's definitely more than 0.

Consider SR. The MM suggests SR to be about 10-11 + HD. If a monster had SR of just HD, it probably is going to have little/no effect. SR of 15-20 + HD is, on the other hand, pretty damn impressive and might be worth +2 CR.

Ultimately, it's relative. A creature that has 26 Cha is impressive, but with nothing but skills... more of a curiousity. A creature that has 26 Cha and sorcery, on the other hand... that's worth a bonus.

 

[Scion]

his is the part I disagree with. The CR of a critter is a combatation of everything as well.

Everything related to being challenging, if you give a creature Greater Detect Fuzz Ball and Destroy at will that works instantly at a range of 10,000 feet it wont change the CR one bit.

This level of sorc gives the dragon almost nothing, compared to what he already has and what pc's he will be up against will have.

His skills are already massive and impressive, there will be a slight boost in skill points (4) but compared to how many he already had it is negligable. They wont cause any massive power influx.

A single third level spell? yey. It wont be any use offensively, defensive is possible but at such a low caster check that dispel magic cant help but negate it, or it will be of such low power that the party doesnt really have to even worry about it. (the party has been going against haste for 9 levels now, either they have a way around it or they just arent worried about it for whatever reason, possibly dispel, possibly slow, possibly they are all hasted, maybe they are ranged, whatever it is)

It seems that the trouble is that your are adding the Sorc level after the fact... And that seems weak. I'll buy that. What if you added it to a baby dragon, and then the dragon grew up with it? Surly those spells on a CR1 critter make it a CR2. Why would it suddenly drop off at CRX Y or Z?

baby dragon? that would not be a 5th level caster. So say we add one level of sorc to creature zeezleelbbublab surely that adds a +1 CR right? knowing nothing about the creature what-so-ever there is no real way to tell. Sure you could say it is worth +1 CR, but there is no guarentee. Perhaps this creature has a 8 cha, maybe it has a special ability where each level of sorc it gets counts double.

Still, getting back to your example of some other creature, when it is a different age category then the CR adjustment might be different. It would be on a case by case basis. If the amount of power did nothing for it then why would it be worth +1 CR? it isnt.

I guess my thought is that the CR, as given is an inclusion of ALL powers, high and low. Wether that is a blue dragon's ability to creat/destroy water, or a blue dragons breath weapon. All together that adds up to CR Z. Adding the one sorc level... Adds up to CR +1.

Yes, CR is supposed to include ALL powers. That is what I have said. But, since CR rounds a very great deal within a single CR the power levels can have a certain varience. Anytime there is varience then there is the possibility that ADDING something will not net to the next CR. So it doesnt always add up to +1 CR. In this case it isnt even close.

You say that you are taking all of the powers into account, if he picked up a level of wizard would you increase his CR? He definately gains less that way, or a level of commoner? 0 power increase right there. Still CR +1? two levels of commoner? 10? 100?

CR has varience within each step, with that varience there is always the possibility of adding something and the CR not changing.

 

[James McMurray]

I read your example spells, now pick one (only one, he only gets one) and tell me how it will really matter in the battle. Most/all of the ones you listed are nice, but will rarely be worth casting. Generally they are either short duration or not terribly powerful. He would be better off breathing, full attacking, moving (at an incredible speed!) into a better position.

Heck, any one of those is worth it. Displacement cast at round 1 means the dragon takes a hek of a lot less damage or forces the party to use more resources to remove it. The same with all the other options. If the party uses up the resources it would have taken them to fight a creature one CR higher because they shoot more arrows or use up dispels, then they have fought a creature with a higher CR.

Would you change the Dragons CR up from 14 to 15 if you added a few points of natural armor and gave it a couple of minor abilities? I doubt it. Why would you do it here when the level of sorc gives it 'less' than that??

Define "minor ability." If its "detect and destroy fuzzball" then no. But if its Displacement, then yes I would.

It is all about relative power. The amount of power he gets from that level is negligable, sure it is there, but it is not worth a full point of CR.

I disagree. But that's cool. You can house rule it to work differently if you want to. No big deal. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Like I said earlier, that is a problem with the CR system, it rounds out a lot of things.

I'm glad we agree.

After all, we are talking about one group with 7th level spells, and then the next having 8th level spells (not to mention all of the other changes from 14 to 15). The dragon got one third level spell and pretty much nothing else, the party got 8th level spells. Do you see the disparity?

Generally speaking dragons are "end of adventure encounters". That means that their CR is usually higher than that of the party they are facing. That means that this dragon's foes will probably not have access to 8th evel spells, and might not even have access to 7th level spells.

It isnt that I dont agree that the dragon gained 'some' power, he just didnt gain enough to be a full CR higher. Not by a long shot.

So we disagree. That's ok. But there's no point in arguing further, as my stance won't change any, and apparently neither will yours. Its all cool.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Do a couple of third level spells really make a CR 14 dragon into a CR 15 challenge? I doubt it.

Why restrict this discussion to Dragons, when the same logic applies elsewhere?

Heydricus is a Human Ftr 9/Sor 5. He's CR 14. He gains a level, and chooses to gain a Sorcerer level, making him a Ftr 9/Sor 6. Are you saying that he won't be CR 15 now, because he's only gained a few measly low-level spell slots? (If you start doing that, you need to compensate players who choose a suboptimal multiclass, and you end up with the AD&D system, where a Fighter 7/Mage 7/Cleric 7 equals a Fighter 10. Ick.)
Besides, he'll probably use his third-level slots for things like Haste, which doesn't need to scale so much, instead of Fireball. For first-level slots, he can use Expeditious Retreat, Shield, and True Strike. So, he'll still get plenty of use out of them, and some of those spells (True Strike, for example) are substantially more valuable to a fighter-type than they are to a pure caster. More importantly, he can use scrolls and wands and such, and the ability to purchase those scales with character level, not class level.

Okay, so having mixed levels like that probably isn't the most powerful way to do things. He'd probably be better off finding some useful PrC. (Hmmm... a Dragon taking Eldritch Knight levels?) But, it's still +1 CR by the book, unless you want to rework the entire CR system to "adjust" the multiclassed NPCs out there.

The Dragon in the previous discussion is in exactly the same situation. In fact, he gets MORE out of the single Sorcerer level than Heydricus would, because he can now gain a Familiar, and he may or may not have the Dragon's expanded spell list. Also, I'm not sure how the "class spell list" thing would work, but he might now have better ability to use scrolls and wands.

Finally, if I have a Dragon PC, what other option is there? I gain a level. (DING!)
What are my advancement options? Dragon "class level" HD are based on age, not experience, in the same way that the HD "advancement" rules for other creatures are meant to show variation within a species, not some sort of career path for a single creature. So, by a strict reading of the rules, the DM shouldn't ALLOW me to increase my Dragon's HD, which means I need to add class levels. So, I have three options:
1> Add a level of Sorcerer, which expands my (admittedly somewhat limited) spellcasting ability, allowing me to use magic to shore up the Dragon's few weaknesses
2> Add a level of Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue/Ranger/etc, which improve my BAB/feats/skills
or
3> Add a level of Wizard/Druid/etc, where I'm starting from scratch
Clearly option #3 is suboptimal, in the same way that a multiclassed Fighter/Sorcerer shouldn't add a level of Druid. But is #1 worse than #2? Depends on the creature, I suppose, but if a Dragon with a level of Barbarian should increase its ECL by 1, then why not Sorcerer?

 

[Scion]

Why restrict this discussion to Dragons, when the same logic applies elsewhere?

Because the discussion is whether or not the extra sorc level warrents a full +1 CR. Pc's are done completely differently, and dragons are pretty top teir.


I will state it again though.

The dragon is CR 14, you add a level of sorc and make it CR 15. How about you do it again? one more level, CR 16.

Now, let us compare your dragon + 2 sorc levels to the dragons big brother, who is also CR 16.

Mature adult Size H HD 22d12+110 (253) + 2d4+10 = 270avg
Str 27 Dex 10 Con 21 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 14
BAB/Grapple+22/+38 Attack +28
Fort +18 Ref +13 Will +17
Breath 14d4 (26) Fright 23
Move 60 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft. Initiative +0
AC 29 (–2 size,+21 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 29
Special Immune to acid, water breathing, darkness, corrupt water, DR 10/magic
Caster level 7th
SR 21
extra skill points 8

Old Size H HD 25d12+125 (287)
Str 29 Dex 10 Con 21 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 14
BAB/Grapple +25/+42 Attack +32
Fort +19 Ref +14 Will +16
Breath 16d4 (27) Fright 24
Move 60 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft. Initiative +0
AC 32 (–2 size,+24 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 32
Special Immune to acid, water breathing, darkness, corrupt water, DR 10/magic, Plant growth
Caster level 7th
SR 22
extra skill points 24

So the older brother has 17 more hp (from his 3 more hd), more str, +3 BAB, +1 fort, +1 ref, -1 will, +2d4 breath, +1 to its save, +1 to the fright save, a 3rd level spell to use, 3 more AC, the same caster level, one more point of SR, and 16 more skill points with 1 more max rank possible.

Looks like big brother wins in just about every way. Most of those effects are worth several spell slots all on their own, but they are permanent and cannot be dispelled. Some of the benefits are worth way more than even a few 3rd level spell slots.

17hp? 2nd level spell slot, more str? somewhere around 2nd as well (better than bulls strength because it is not a typed bonus), +3 bab something like a 5th level slot, the saves are a wash (the next age category was the big save jumps, +2 to each, this level was only +1 to each, still respectable though), more breath weapon damage (worth way more than an extra third level slot, especially with that higher save), 3 more ac is better than the 2nd level slot for barkskin, SAME caster level, more SR (always good to have), and 16 skill points!

Seems pretty clear to me. Mileage will always vary, but the big brother is certainly much better. Much, much better.

 

[Scion]

Just to repond more to this.

Okay, so having mixed levels like that probably isn't the most powerful way to do things.

True, very true. But pc's work differently, as always. They have lots of things to deal with, and they arent just about the CR. You could make a pc that has no combat potential, no social skills, and really is mainly just a lump with a few minor abilities. Would he still be CR whatever according to the system? Sure, but pc's are special that way. I'll have to find which book talked about giving some monsters discounts in certain areas. I believe it said something about if the class being added on was way outside of the creatures specialty and the powers would not add anything to the CR then to give 2 levels for each point of CR, or something similar. It would make sense here too.

Finally, if I have a Dragon PC,

Ever play council of the wyrms? Dragon pc's are even more special, they just dont work properly in a normal campaign. Their LA tend to be so massive that it is incredibly difficult for a dm to balance things properly.

In an all dragon group then it would work just the same, everyone has roughly the same baseline, so adding on a character level would give you one point of CR. But that is because it is a player character, not an npc. CR's arent assigned in a useful fashion to pc's for a variety of reason.

In any event, it has little bearing on this topic Pc's are special, npc's have CR. Adding very low level abilities to a very strong creature will not keep on upping its CR. Just like if you add on a few levels of commoner to the big beast, same thing.