D&D 3E/3.5 Adding taunt/threat mechanics to 3.5e

[pfooti]

I'm going to be running a 3.5e game fairly soon, and one of the things I'd like to back-propagate from 4e is tanking taunt/threat mechanics. As it stands, the Knight class (PHB2) has a fighting challenge which is pretty useful, but I'm thinking of adding a feat chain that reproduces a lot of this. Basically:

Mocking Blows: fighter bonus feat, no prerequisites
Whenever you strike (or perhaps just attack) an opponent with a melee attack, that opponent is "marked" until the end of your next turn. All marked opponents have a -2 penalty to attack your allies, all of your allies gain a +2 morale bonus to saving throws and spell resistance against the abilities (su, ex, sl) of marked foes. A creature cannot be marked to more than creature at a time.

Retributive Strike: fighter bonus feat, prereq: mocking blows
Whenever a marked opponent attacks an ally of yours, if they would not otherwise provoke an attack of opportunity, they provoke an attack of opportunity. Note that this bonus AoO does not stack with AoOs resulting from casting spells nondefensively, but does apply if your marked opponent successfully cast on the defensive.

Followup: Whenever a marked opponent provokes an AoO, you can choose to forego that AoO to instead take a 5-foot step that does not provoke any AoOs.

That more-or-less covers the key features. One of the major things I really like about 4e is the attempt to introduce tanking mechanics of some sort: some kind of thing that encourages enemies to focus on the heavily-armored guys. It's not precisely rational behavior on the part of the enemies (get the squishies first!) but it does make for a reason to actually play a heavily-armed fighter without having to resort to spiked chain cheese or ToB crusader tactics.

Thoughts? Directions? Done-betters?

 

[Sekhmet]

--
Mocking Blows: fighter bonus feat, no prerequisites
Whenever you successfully hit an opponent with a melee attack, that opponent is "marked". A marked opponent receives a -2 penalty when attacking anyone but you, and all of your allies gain a +2 morale bonus to saving throws and spell resistance against the abilities of the affected opponent. This bonus does not stack with itself.

Retributive Strike: fighter bonus feat, prereq: mocking blows
Whenever a marked opponent attacks an ally of yours, if they would not otherwise provoke an attack of opportunity, they provoke an attack of opportunity.

Followup: Whenever a marked opponent provokes an AoO, you can choose to forego that AoO to instead take a 5-foot step.
--

I cleaned up the feats to make them a little more readable, and to clear up any cloudy grammar. Some of your text is redundant, so I pulled that out, too.

Also, I like the ideas. I don't see how they make being a "tank" more reliable, though. A small penalty (-2/+2) doesn't mean too much to me if it means going after a squishier target. Likewise, provoking an AoO doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't get to me, anyway. I just need to make sure I'm out of your Reach.

 

[Dandu]

This is what exists.

You should consider making a version based on strength.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Goad sucks, it's a move action that has to be used on an adjacent foe, and the save DC isn't high enough to be reliable and duration is just a round. So enemy's trading full attacks for your standards, and by the odds, there's still a near guarantee it will fail every 2 or 3 rounds anyway. Even if it works perfectly, all it does is stop melee attacks from goin to allies. Doesn't lock him down at all or keep him from using spells.

Knight's Challenge, with its long range, swift action, multi-round duration, and compulsion elements, is a much better model.

 

[pfooti]

Thanks for the cleanup, Sekhmet. It's what I get for having a brainstorm right before bed: unclear text.

As to goad, I am in agreement: it sucks. My overall goal is to add a mechanic that should tactically encourage the opponent to focus on the tank, but not require it. Even the Knights challenge (test of mettle), as I remember it being used, was more of an all-or-nothing affair based on a saving throw that didn't scale particularly well. Of course, the player in the game with the Knight wasn't much of an optimizer, so there might be wiggle room in the mechanics a bit.

If I want to add a real taunt to the game (like the test of mettle or goad), I'd want it to be pretty effective (75% against equal CR) or *very* effective (100% success against most enemies) but with a large drawback (enemies taunted get +N attack/damage). Otherwise, it would really be pointless, I think.

The thing about the AoO upon attacking an ally is: unless that ally of mine is really nearby, you cannot get there to attack: any movement beyond a 5' step would provoke an AoO from me anyway, to which I would respond either with a 5' step of my own, or an attack (trips, grapples, Stand Still feat all are useful here).

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm going on a road trip, so I won't be able to follow up on this thread for a little while.

 

[TKDB]

Mocking Blows: fighter bonus feat, no prerequisites
Whenever you strike (or perhaps just attack) an opponent with a melee attack, that opponent is "marked" until the end of your next turn. All marked opponents have a -2 penalty to attack your allies, all of your allies gain a +2 morale bonus to saving throws and spell resistance against the abilities (su, ex, sl) of marked foes. A creature cannot be marked to more than creature at a time.

I never really liked the "marking" thing in 4e. I see its point from a gamist perspective of giving the fighter a way to protect allies, but from both the simulationist and narrativist end it's rather flimsy. I like the "mocking" aspect you're working with here, so that's something you could work with -- though bear in mind that this would make any effects on the enemy mind-affecting in nature.
You could also base it on the principle of you being a clear and present danger that demands the enemy's attention, thus preventing them from focusing as well on opponents. This wouldn't provide much justification for boosting allies' saves (which I assume is meant to reflect how 4e uses passive defenses, right?), but would make it more justifiably applicable to enemies that are immune to mind-affecting effects.
At any rate, try to justify the feat's mechanics as much as possible in terms of what's going on in-game. After all, the "role" in "role-playing" refers to character acting, not your job in the fight

Retributive Strike: fighter bonus feat, prereq: mocking blows
Whenever a marked opponent attacks an ally of yours, if they would not otherwise provoke an attack of opportunity, they provoke an attack of opportunity. Note that this bonus AoO does not stack with AoOs resulting from casting spells nondefensively, but does apply if your marked opponent successfully cast on the defensive.

I don't think it's worth trying to emulate 4e's methods quite so perfectly here -- there's no logical reason that this should be at all based on Mocking Blows (or whatever you decide to call the "mark" type feat). If anything, Combat Reflexes would be the most appropriate prerequisite, and just leave off the marking thing entirely.

Followup: Whenever a marked opponent provokes an AoO, you can choose to forego that AoO to instead take a 5-foot step that does not provoke any AoOs.

ToB's Evasive Reflexes gives the same benefit without any reliance on marking, and Miniatures Handbook has a more advanced feat called Sidestep that gives you a free 5-ft step in addition to any AoO you make.

I do like the idea of adding more support for a "tank" role. The main thing to keep in mind is that where 4e is a very "bottom up" game (ie, mechanics first), 3.x is more "top down" (ie, flavor first). There's certainly plenty of room for in-game justification of how tanking-type abilities work, just make sure you stick to them.

 

[Dandu]

I like the "mocking" aspect you're working with here, so that's something you could work with

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries.

 

[TKDB]

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries.

Curses! Your insults are so aggravating, I can't focus properly!
Furthermore, your comrades are laughing at me, and their lifted spirits are helping them to better resist my attacks!

Hint, hint -- The save bonus from Mocking Blows should totally be a morale bonus. Just sayin'.

 

[BriarMonkey]

Or - you could forgo the feat route and tack the mechanic onto the Intimidate skill. The Fighter could make an opposed Intimidate check against the target. If successful, the attempt grants a morale bonus to saves for the Fighter's comrades, while inflicting a morale penalty against the target's To Hit rolls, Saving Throws, and Skill Checks.

As they are, Feats are few and far between compared to the glut available.

 

[pfooti]

Adding it to intimidate seems like a neat idea for the base mocking blows idea for certain. The rest of the stuff can probably be faked through existing feats as well. The game is going to start up in a week or so, I'll have to report back as to its efficacy. First-glance, it doesn't seem too overpowered, I'd say the biggest danger is that none of my PCs will actually take the feat. 3e does work mostly fine without this mechanic after all (although I've found that battlefield control is really a bigger issue in basic 3e play compared to 4e play, probably because 4e/mmo-style tanking is harder to emulate in 3e).