D&D 5E Additive versus subtractive modularity

[Lalato]

I have synthesized what everyone is saying into this...

"Good day, sir. Good day!"

 

[Lanefan]

Hussar please list off the non magical healing rules for these games.

I'm not [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] but I'll try to bang off a few from 1e:

- Monks could self-heal to some extent (I forget the specifics now) at higher level
- Paladins had lay-on-hands once a day, debateable whether that's "magical healing" or not but there's no spell involved
- Healing herbs were introduced in a Dragon article, mostly for Rangers and Druids to use, effectiveness varied but they were certainly a limited form of alternate healing
- I never used 1e's psionics system as written but isn't there a self-healing ability in there somewhere?

Lan-"I'm sure I miseed a few others but I'm in a hurry"-efan

 

[evileeyore]

I'm not [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] but I'll try to bang off a few from 1e:

- Monks could self-heal to some extent (I forget the specifics now) at higher level
- Paladins had lay-on-hands once a day, debateable whether that's "magical healing" or not but there's no spell involved
- Healing herbs were introduced in a Dragon article, mostly for Rangers and Druids to use, effectiveness varied but they were certainly a limited form of alternate healing
- I never used 1e's psionics system as written but isn't there a self-healing ability in there somewhere?

Lan-"I'm sure I miseed a few others but I'm in a hurry"-efan

But Lanefan all those all "magical"!

I mean Emerikol will be along to tell you so any minute now!

 

[Emerikol]

I'm not [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] but I'll try to bang off a few from 1e:

- Monks could self-heal to some extent (I forget the specifics now) at higher level
- Paladins had lay-on-hands once a day, debateable whether that's "magical healing" or not but there's no spell involved
- Healing herbs were introduced in a Dragon article, mostly for Rangers and Druids to use, effectiveness varied but they were certainly a limited form of alternate healing
- I never used 1e's psionics system as written but isn't there a self-healing ability in there somewhere?

Lan-"I'm sure I miseed a few others but I'm in a hurry"-efan

Yeah I personally would have viewed all those as "magic". I hope you realize that when I say magic I include psionics and so forth. I definitely always considered the laying on of hands as divine magic.

The only one we could even debate is the monk. I admit to having ever had one monk and I pretty much viewed it as a magical class. I'd even lump the barbarian rages in the not of this world category.

It's like troll regeneration. It's magic even if it's not a spell or affected by an antimagic shell. It's supernatural if you will. It's not something possible in our own world.

If this is the type of things you'd present then I wouldn't consider your case made.

 

[BryonD]

But, your 3e style wasn't actually supported by 3e either.

??? Boggle ???

Yes, it was. (or should I say "is")

It's idiosyncratic to a very specific interpretation of the rules that is actually countered a number of times by the rules themselves. IOW, it's something very specific to you and not the system. So, since W/VP actually specifically supports what you claim you want, then what's the problem?

Nope. I do not change one single thing in the mechanics. I use the mechanics exactly as written.

 

[Hussar]

Hussar please list off the non magical healing rules for these games.

Ill address each in kind and show that my interpretation is completely valid.

Otherwise I tire of your ridiculous assertions.

For the third time.

1. Monks can heal. Monks have no magical abilities, nor are they flavoured as having any access to magic. Yet they can heal damage. How are they doing that?

2. In the 1e Wilderness Survival Guide and in the 2e Non Weapon Proficiencies, any character with the Heal proficiency can heal 1-3 HP of damage without any magic, instantly.

3. In 3e, with a successful heal check, a wizard can heal any damage that does not flat out kill him in one day. The absolute longest a character can take to heal is 9 days (a 1st level barbarian with a 20 Con reduced to -9 HP). All without any magic.

I'm sure there are others.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah I personally would have viewed all those as "magic". I hope you realize that when I say magic I include psionics and so forth. I definitely always considered the laying on of hands as divine magic.

The only one we could even debate is the monk. I admit to having ever had one monk and I pretty much viewed it as a magical class. I'd even lump the barbarian rages in the not of this world category.

It's like troll regeneration. It's magic even if it's not a spell or affected by an antimagic shell. It's supernatural if you will. It's not something possible in our own world.

If this is the type of things you'd present then I wouldn't consider your case made.

I'm not trying to make a case, really; just lobbing in some info.

I guess I define magic a bit more narrowly, then:

- if "Detect Magic" will pull it, it's magic.
- if an arcane or divine spell or ritual is involved in generating the effect, it's magic.

Supernatural, or fantastic, is a whole other thing; of which magic is but a subset. Psionics are supernatural but are not magic. Ditto troll regeneration, Bardic song, and a whole bunch of other things.

And some classes have built-in access to magic (Clerics, Wizards), some to the supernatural (Bards, Monks, Paladins), and some largely to neither (Fighters, Thieves). Seems simple enough from here.

Lanefan

 

[FireLance]

At this point, I hope that 5e doesn't define hit point recovery in terms of fixed units of time but in terms of short rests and long rests. Then individual groups can flavor short rests and long rests however they like, based on their preferences for non-magical hit point recovery.

So, if you are fine with faster hit point recovery, a short rest could be an hour and a long rest could be a day.

If you prefer slower hit point recovery, a short rest could be a day, and a long rest could be a week.

In this way, you retain the default inter-class balance with respect to the recovery of all resources, whether hit points or spells.

This would also translate into time limits for adventures - for example, the PCs must defeat the BBEG within three short rests or he will complete an evil ritual. Depending on the group, this could be three hours or three days.

 

[Hussar]

??? Boggle ???

Yes, it was. (or should I say "is")


Nope. I do not change one single thing in the mechanics. I use the mechanics exactly as written.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You want slow non-magical healing right? 3e never had that. You get 1 hp/level just for one night. Double that for a day of rest. Four times that with a single easy skill check.

Other than d10 or d12 hp characters, everyone heals in one day. The fighter types take two.

So how did the mechanics support you again? Or is it a case that one day is too short and unbelievable but two is just fine?

 

[Thaumaturge]

I think, to make things interesting, everyone should reverse positions for the next 18 pages.

Thaumaturge.