D&D General Adventure Types and Literature Types

[DEFCON 1]

Maybe I have a too broad definition of "sandbox" but my approach to it still has over-arcing plots and characterization/development. It is just that we find out what those are through play, specifically by the way the world reacts to what the PCs choose to do.

On the other hand, I do not like when every single adventure/side-quest is related to a main plot because that seem too coincidental for me - and I like some bottle episodes, where a self-contained event provides an opportunity for different experiences and learning about characters outside of the main plot.

This greatly exemplifies why I think using "sandbox" and "linear" as two sides of a single coin is really just an exaggeration meant for online discussion or badwrongfunning than it is an actual representation of most gaming. I don't think mostly anyone really plays "sandboxes" or plays "linear campaigns" as they get defined. It's always a mixture of the two.

As you say... you can have arching plots over side quests, just like you can have isolated areas to go to and explore while following a long-term story. Almost every game is going to see them both occur at varying levels depending on how they prefer to play. Unfortunately I think it's just too easy to default to the far extremes when talking about how to play D&D that the much wider and more trod-upon middle ground gets pushed to the rear. It's just not as interesting to rant about I guess.

 

[Guest 7034872]

I find completely open games lack a story and are very hard to plan for as a DM. I like when PCs have a story and an idea of what they want to do so that I can weave it into the story. I also like to have a couple side quests that follow the story or are one-offs. I like to have larger stories that span a few levels and then move to something else.

The adventure books are harder to branch out and more forces the party to stay on the path. It makes a grand story, but at the expense of PC goals. This is why a lot of them talk about having players pick goals that are part of the story. Which may be another discussion if that is good or not.

I completely agree. While this is my first-ever serious DM effort, it isn't anywhere near to my first rodeo (started in 1982, excepting a few jaunts I dropped it when I went to college, and then just picked it back up in 2018), and my experience as a player has been that adventures where the DM makes and populates the world and then just sets us loose in the place tend to fizzle out. That's why I'm leaning hard toward keeping this thing at least fairly linear.

Where I've been on this for some months is that I'll do best to strike a balance between the completely open world approach and the highly linear, single-plot approach. This seems to be what most seasoned DMs do and it also seems to be what the better modules also do. payn's initial comments really helped me to get my head around what the elements at play in these approaches are, so at this point I like the idea of keeping it linear so long as I don't fall into that "illusion of agency" problem that I remember well from some of our youthful adventures back in the 80s.

I mean, the sprawling epics and wandering Chaucerian tales still have a special place in my heart, but that's a note about literature, not about RPG adventures. I do intend to maintain, let us say, a "robust opportunity" for side quests in here, but I am going to keep the main adventure linear, which it was right from the beginning of my writing.

Now, what we do is watch the change of adventure types we see over time, and corellate that with the decline of the short story form in genre fiction.

Most of the classics you mention are not really written by one person. They are folklore, originally part of an oral tradition that were eventually captured by some author. As part of an oral tradition, the individual segments are designed to be told in one sitting. Nobody told the story of The Odyssey. They told the story of Odysseus and the Cyclops, and a different story the next night, or the like.

It's funny--I was thinking about just this point last night and this morning: the really old classics much more strongly resemble campfire stories, which are highly episodic/modular. Sometimes they'll have recurring themes, sure, and they'll quite often feature recurring favorite characters, of course, but you and payn are right: they're episodic. The closest popular thing to them nowadays seems to be the television soap opera.

I guess I'm just one of those nutters who still love short stories.

Thanks to all on here--you've helped me a lot to work out how I want to approach this thing and what I should change before March.

 

[Oofta]

Some thoughts in general about planning and "modules". Are you writing a module for publication or are you preparing this solely for a home campaign? Because to me they can be completely different beasts. I have no desire to write modules for publication, but I also don't really think in terms of linear or sandbox for my home campaign.

For the most part, I have a sandbox campaign that grows into a linear campaign based on player decisions and preferences. I think primarily in terms of factions, relationships and motivations. I also think in terms of set dressing based on a variety of factors including where I'm setting the campaign (I have an established home brew campaign worlds) or specific to the faction.

So in one campaign I decided to place it in a section of the world I hadn't really thought about for a while. It was on the map, I knew the basic history but that was it. The region was similar in some ways to the remnants of the Byzantine empire, the eastern provinces of the old Roman empire that survived for centuries after the fall of Rome. In any case, it was an old empire with a proud history but over the course of the past century it had collapsed into small warring city states and warlords because of a narrowly averted apocalypse from a previous campaign.

So lots of factions. The PCs were in one of the more prosperous and civilized city states, but there were still threats immediate and long term. So I had different factions, there were the governing bodies with a handful of politicians that I only sketched out at a high level. Initially I only put much thought into the local power brokers. I had what passed as law enforcement, a trade guild, a thieves guild, a couple of groups associated with PC's backgrounds. I also made some quick notes about surrounding regions with thoughts for potential factions and opportunities that existed there. I had some basic thoughts on a sleeping giant/god stirring and a new ruler from the west claiming to be the emperor reborn that was actually a red dragon.

Then I just kind of let the PCs loose. First few adventures was just the typical "caravan guard" so I could do a quick introduction to the region and have the caravan leader give some info on things as they passed through. But then at certain break points at the end of a session I would ask what the group wanted to do next. Pursue that rumor about riches in a destroyed estate? Follow up on helping a noble house that had fallen on hard times but could possibly get them noticed? Do something about that thieves' guild that may be responsible for people disappearing? Something else?

By doing that, I let the players give me enough details that I could prep for the next 2-4 sessions. Meanwhile I would jot down notes, throw in stories and rumors about things happening abroad that didn't have any impact. Some hooks hit, some did not. The campaign ended up as a special forces group fighting the dragon emperor, but I would have been just as happy to run a campaign where they decided to try to just be interested in wealth and exploring the nearby mountains the according to legend had been formed when that giant/god that might be waking had crashed after being defeated by Thor.

So I had an overall timeline of things that were happening, factions that had conflicting goals. How the group decided to interface with those was totally up to them. So sandbox with short linear stretches and an overarching linear structure that may or may not be affected by the PCs.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Some thoughts in general about planning and "modules". Are you writing a module for publication or are you preparing this solely for a home campaign?

The latter. This is a work of love written for friends so they can have a bunch of fun. Ain't no money in publishing these things, anyway, so I'm not worrying about that. Some of the guys did want to record the sessions and post them on YT, so we probably will do that; I have to make some allowances for the 21st century being the 21st century, right?

For the most part, I have a sandbox campaign that grows into a linear campaign based on player decisions and preferences. I think primarily in terms of factions, relationships and motivations. I also think in terms of set dressing based on a variety of factors including where I'm setting the campaign (I have an established home brew campaign worlds) or specific to the faction.

Yeah, this is what I've seen a lot of seasoned DMs do. They build a world into which they put all sorts of well-defined campaigns and as the campaigns grow, so does the world. New campaigns arise in response to player interest.

I started with a blank MS Word document about a year and a half ago, so I started with a campaign idea I've wanted to pursue since I was 19 and now have a modestly fleshed-out world within the Planescape campaign setting (but minus the steampunk, the constant philosophical extremes, and the glut of slang--there I've come up with something a bit different). My hope is to keep this first one pretty linear, but future campaigns within the world will be at players' choice, assuming they enjoy this one and want to keep trekking around through this version of the planar multiverse.

Then I just kind of let the PCs loose. First few adventures was just the typical "caravan guard" so I could do a quick introduction to the region and have the caravan leader give some info on things as they passed through.

This is the part I very much hope to get to in due time, but still have anxieties about. Improv is tricky for me, but I'm committed to learning it.

By doing that, I let the players give me enough details that I could prep for the next 2-4 sessions. Meanwhile I would jot down notes, throw in stories and rumors about things happening abroad that didn't have any impact. Some hooks hit, some did not.

This is almost exactly the advice Matt Colville gave in his YT video on sandboxes and railroads. I'm not there yet, but it's what I'm aiming at.

Serious world-building takes an awful lot of time and thought: I've learned that much during the pandemic.

 

[Oofta]

The latter. This is a work of love written for friends so they can have a bunch of fun. Ain't no money in publishing these things, anyway, so I'm not worrying about that. Some of the guys did want to record the sessions and post them on YT, so we probably will do that; I have to make some allowances for the 21st century being the 21st century, right?

Yeah, this is what I've seen a lot of seasoned DMs do. They build a world into which they put all sorts of well-defined campaigns and as the campaigns grow, so does the world. New campaigns arise in response to player interest.

I started with a blank MS Word document about a year and a half ago, so I started with a campaign idea I've wanted to pursue since I was 19 and now have a modestly fleshed-out world within the Planescape campaign setting (but minus the steampunk, the constant philosophical extremes, and the glut of slang--there I've come up with something a bit different). My hope is to keep this first one pretty linear, but future campaigns within the world will be at players' choice, assuming they enjoy this one and want to keep trekking around through this version of the planar multiverse.

This is the part I very much hope to get to in due time, but still have anxieties about. Improv is tricky for me, but I'm committed to learning it.

This is almost exactly the advice Matt Colville gave in his YT video on sandboxes and railroads. I'm not there yet, but it's what I'm aiming at.

Serious world-building takes an awful lot of time and thought: I've learned that much during the pandemic.

For improv something that might help is have lists prepped. Names of individuals, places of business, town and city names. You can find various sites if you google that can help with this and can even include fairly detailed descriptions. So if the group decides to go to the tavern you can pull out the randomly generated you on donjon. It includes not only a menu but also a description, innkeeper, patrons and rumors.

When I need to improv something I just grab something off the appropriate list, check off the name and then make a note of what I did during the session afterwards.

Improv is a skill, practice makes ... well, better if not perfect.

 

[Stormonu]

I'm a movie/tv/comics guy - I haven't sat down and read* a novel since college (so, back in '92 or so). The focus required (especially the eye strain) isn't comfortable any more.

There's just some folks who enjoy the ability to go anywhere and do anything (that would be me; I can spend hours in GTA 5 doing nothing of consequence and just driving around, listening to the in-car radio and finding out what's over the next hill). Others don't like it if they aren't given a bullet point of plot points to follow up on (that would be my sister-in-law and wife), and a small portion don't care if they are led by the nose, as long as it leads to some action (my youngest son falls here). Sometimes, what folks want or do will change up.

* Did listen to audio books, up until the last Harry Potter book, though.

 

[MariaLowe]

The literature epics are freaky railroads and the authors were padding out the word count because they were getting paid by the word and had no freaking editor. Aka 5 pages on stick jock's shield. Most modern novels are railroads but the editor is cutting content to keep from paying the author.

Literature is different, I read a lot in 5 years. I can't say that I liked all the books. Many do not fully understand what literature ist. So I want to say that you need not be lazy and read.

not completely agree here