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D&D 5E Advice wanted on Player Vs Player Situation
- Thread starter Chris633
- Start date
TallIan
Explorer
Unless the two players have been role playing this conflict for some time, and it has been VERY obvious that it could result in PvP, I would definitely make sure the Necromancer player knows what might be going down.
It's not fair for Harry to have been quietly marking down these "strikes" against Derek's PC on his character sheet without Derek's PC having had a chance to notice the growing antipathy from Harry's. Harry needs to have been role playing his character's dislike of Derek's PC's actions.
Even then I would be weary of springing this.
I you do go ahead, then play out the whole thing as you would an NPC attack, giving every opportunity for a fair fight.
It's not fair for Harry to have been quietly marking down these "strikes" against Derek's PC on his character sheet without Derek's PC having had a chance to notice the growing antipathy from Harry's. Harry needs to have been role playing his character's dislike of Derek's PC's actions.
Even then I would be weary of springing this.
I you do go ahead, then play out the whole thing as you would an NPC attack, giving every opportunity for a fair fight.
Jaelommiss
First Post
Harry's Player: DM, I'm going to do that thing that I talked to you about.
DM: Okay, you get into position to do that thing, and just as you're about to finish it you hear a voice behind you ask "What are you doing?" [Paladin's PC], you wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of a sword softly scraping its way out of its scabbard. Rolling over you see Harry, sword in hand and positioned to plunge it into Derek's throat. Before your sleep-muddled thoughts can organize themselves you hear your mouth ask "What are you doing?"
DM now steps back and lets the PCs RP their way through their interpersonal conflict. Harry cannot kill Derek without consequence any more, Derek isn't in a position to escalate the situation, and the another member of the party is included in the conflict.
DM: Okay, you get into position to do that thing, and just as you're about to finish it you hear a voice behind you ask "What are you doing?" [Paladin's PC], you wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of a sword softly scraping its way out of its scabbard. Rolling over you see Harry, sword in hand and positioned to plunge it into Derek's throat. Before your sleep-muddled thoughts can organize themselves you hear your mouth ask "What are you doing?"
DM now steps back and lets the PCs RP their way through their interpersonal conflict. Harry cannot kill Derek without consequence any more, Derek isn't in a position to escalate the situation, and the another member of the party is included in the conflict.
Since we're having a conversation here, you already know there's something wrong.
Don't allow this to happen.
Method 1, GM fiat: I think you're acting OOC and this isn't appropriate.
Method 2: Warn Harry's player that things might not go according to plan. The necromancer is extremely intelligent, and sees it coming. You can tell the necromancer's player in advance and not tell Harry's player that you've warning him. Even if you don't, when Harry pulls the "surprise", feel free to give the necromancer two free surprise rounds.
Method 3....
I've seen this kind of "clever surprise" before, and if it isn't obviously a reasonable outcome, it is most definitely a Very Bad Thing that should not be rewarded.
And since you felt a need to post about it, I'm rather sure what kind of situation this is.
Anyway,
Ken
Don't allow this to happen.
Method 1, GM fiat: I think you're acting OOC and this isn't appropriate.
Method 2: Warn Harry's player that things might not go according to plan. The necromancer is extremely intelligent, and sees it coming. You can tell the necromancer's player in advance and not tell Harry's player that you've warning him. Even if you don't, when Harry pulls the "surprise", feel free to give the necromancer two free surprise rounds.
Method 3....
I've seen this kind of "clever surprise" before, and if it isn't obviously a reasonable outcome, it is most definitely a Very Bad Thing that should not be rewarded.
And since you felt a need to post about it, I'm rather sure what kind of situation this is.
Anyway,
Ken
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Yeah, pretty much this; though I'd try to ensure Harry got at least some sort of in-character chance to notice what's going on - even if it was no more than a straight (and difficult) save-or-die to determine whether he woke up in time. Same as a PC would get if the attack was coming from an NPC or a monster...
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
This sort of solution means the DM is deciding what three PCs do to varying degrees. I would object to that if I was one of the players. I get to decide what my character thinks, does, and says, not the DM. Others might be okay with that, but I wouldn't assume anyone is by default.
Thank you everyone for the advice and feedback. The varying opinions definitely highlights the trickiness of situations like this.
Some additional background: The group is level 14. The PCs have dealt with assassination attempts by cult NPCs and would be prepared for such things. So Derek knows to be on guard and with the high level magic, he can be brought back. Additionally, he will be very hard to kill. In an answer to how to spend gold in 5E, he spent it all on lab equipment and experimentation (others and himself). One of the abilities he recently succeeded in creating within himself is what amounts to a periapt of wound closure (unless he is decapitated & then the ability stops working). Harry doesn’t know Derek has this ability as it is very new. The paladin in the group is an oath of vengeance paladin to god of war. Both the god and the paladin are more chaotic good in alignment. Derek also hasn’t broken any laws and his methods have served the greater good overall. Harry has watched what has been going on in silence for the most part. No conversations have been had about it between the PCs. I should also note that when I say “mature” players, I mean that they are kind and considerate towards each other. No screen time hogs or “my character needs to be the best” types. Everyone just wants to have fun adventuring together and play their characters.
I’ve spoken with Harry’s player about some of the apparent contradictions and he explained his character’s rationale. I will make sure he is aware of all the possible in-game ramifications of his actions (e.g. I think the paladin would try to kill him). As I don’t think he intends to hide what he did from the PC group. He also said his plan is to ambush him at night when he is studying his spells and has his hands full with books. So he is free to attempt to kill Derek, however, Derek will also be afforded all the opportunities to thwart the attack he would have if this was an NPC making the attempt. Additionally, when Harry makes the attempt, I will take Derek’s player aside and ask how he would like to see this play out (so I am now leaning more towards not telling the player prior). The fact that he has that unknown-to-Harry regen ability will give Derek & his player the opportunity to decide how things play out. I need to make sure that Derek gets to make meaningful choices about what happens to his character despite Harry’s choice to thwart that. I also really like an idea someone mentioned about having the paladin more involved in this conflict. Given the paladin I have, THAT would be interesting/fun! I am going to allow rolls for the other PCs to notice something is up. I m also going to as Harry if he is making any effort to hide his feelings.
As a GM I tend to blend being a neutral arbiter and story enforcer. I have a story, but it can change based on PC choices. I also like to make sure the players get to make meaningful choices. For example, Derek is first in line to the throne of his country. The same country that agreed to be the staging grounds for the alliance army that will be facing the cult. If an alliance operative murdered Derek, maybe the alliance is expelled from the country, they arrive to the Well of Dragons too late, Tiamat arrives unchallenged and I scrap the whole final adventure of the AP and this becomes something different.
Ok, I had typed all of this up and just saw the suggestion that Derek the necromancer is smart enough to see this coming. Thus, maybe he is the one who get’s the drop on Harry if he follows through on this. Meaning I tell Derek’s player so he can make a plan to turn the tables. Part of me really likes the twist here. Hmm.. But part me also thinks that Derek should have to make a roll of some type.
Some additional background: The group is level 14. The PCs have dealt with assassination attempts by cult NPCs and would be prepared for such things. So Derek knows to be on guard and with the high level magic, he can be brought back. Additionally, he will be very hard to kill. In an answer to how to spend gold in 5E, he spent it all on lab equipment and experimentation (others and himself). One of the abilities he recently succeeded in creating within himself is what amounts to a periapt of wound closure (unless he is decapitated & then the ability stops working). Harry doesn’t know Derek has this ability as it is very new. The paladin in the group is an oath of vengeance paladin to god of war. Both the god and the paladin are more chaotic good in alignment. Derek also hasn’t broken any laws and his methods have served the greater good overall. Harry has watched what has been going on in silence for the most part. No conversations have been had about it between the PCs. I should also note that when I say “mature” players, I mean that they are kind and considerate towards each other. No screen time hogs or “my character needs to be the best” types. Everyone just wants to have fun adventuring together and play their characters.
I’ve spoken with Harry’s player about some of the apparent contradictions and he explained his character’s rationale. I will make sure he is aware of all the possible in-game ramifications of his actions (e.g. I think the paladin would try to kill him). As I don’t think he intends to hide what he did from the PC group. He also said his plan is to ambush him at night when he is studying his spells and has his hands full with books. So he is free to attempt to kill Derek, however, Derek will also be afforded all the opportunities to thwart the attack he would have if this was an NPC making the attempt. Additionally, when Harry makes the attempt, I will take Derek’s player aside and ask how he would like to see this play out (so I am now leaning more towards not telling the player prior). The fact that he has that unknown-to-Harry regen ability will give Derek & his player the opportunity to decide how things play out. I need to make sure that Derek gets to make meaningful choices about what happens to his character despite Harry’s choice to thwart that. I also really like an idea someone mentioned about having the paladin more involved in this conflict. Given the paladin I have, THAT would be interesting/fun! I am going to allow rolls for the other PCs to notice something is up. I m also going to as Harry if he is making any effort to hide his feelings.
As a GM I tend to blend being a neutral arbiter and story enforcer. I have a story, but it can change based on PC choices. I also like to make sure the players get to make meaningful choices. For example, Derek is first in line to the throne of his country. The same country that agreed to be the staging grounds for the alliance army that will be facing the cult. If an alliance operative murdered Derek, maybe the alliance is expelled from the country, they arrive to the Well of Dragons too late, Tiamat arrives unchallenged and I scrap the whole final adventure of the AP and this becomes something different.
Ok, I had typed all of this up and just saw the suggestion that Derek the necromancer is smart enough to see this coming. Thus, maybe he is the one who get’s the drop on Harry if he follows through on this. Meaning I tell Derek’s player so he can make a plan to turn the tables. Part of me really likes the twist here. Hmm.. But part me also thinks that Derek should have to make a roll of some type.
The Old Crow
Explorer
I don't agree with Harry's player's choice, and you did say the players were mature, but I still wonder if it could be born out of jealousy and boredom? Derek seems to have a lot of toys.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
However much the story up to this point and the established characterizations so far reasonably justify the actions of Harry, all that really matters in my view is whether Derek's player is going to enjoy having his or her character killed by another player's character. The goals of play in D&D 5e - how you "win" in D&D - is everyone having a good time and creating an exciting, memorable story by playing. If Derek isn't happy with this outcome, then the group will fail to achieve the goals of play. The group "loses" D&D.
Further, the campaign setting is presumably filled with villains and monsters seeking to do harm to the PCs or things they care about. They are controlled by the DM who doesn't really care whether the PCs kill and steal from them (or at least, the DM shouldn't). This includes Tiamat, who is more of an existential threat to Harry and the things he cares about than, I assume, Derek. And still Harry's player wants to take out Derek? This is a big red flag for me.
Further, the campaign setting is presumably filled with villains and monsters seeking to do harm to the PCs or things they care about. They are controlled by the DM who doesn't really care whether the PCs kill and steal from them (or at least, the DM shouldn't). This includes Tiamat, who is more of an existential threat to Harry and the things he cares about than, I assume, Derek. And still Harry's player wants to take out Derek? This is a big red flag for me.
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