D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

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Iron Man 3 featured a Chinese actor and had extra scenes set in China.
Avengers 2 prominently featured South Korea.
Blink and Psylocke were in the last two X-Men movies.

Attempts are being made at representation and including SW Asians.


If it's meant to reflect the world, yes.
If it's meant to reflect Mexico, it should reflect Mexican demographics and diversity (whatever those are).

What's your point here? That games (and other media) shouldn't try and represent diversity? No efforts should be made?
Mexican popular media has much the same problems as in the US. It tends to ignore the existence of Mexicos large minority populations, especially Afro-Mexicans and First Nations Mexicans.

The issue with a lot of US media is it will show places like New York as vastly more white than it is.
 

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Iron Man 3 featured a Chinese actor and had extra scenes set in China.
Avengers 2 prominently featured South Korea.
Blink and Psylocke were in the last two X-Men movies.

Attempts are being made at representation and including SW Asians.
Yes, but those attempts came after the huge increase in overseas demand for Hollywood movies, they are not what caused the demand.

If it's meant to reflect the world, yes.
If it's meant to reflect Mexico, it should reflect Mexican demographics and diversity (whatever those are).

What's your point here? That games (and other media) shouldn't try and represent diversity? No efforts should be made?
No, the point is that you aren't providing a clear standard for diversity that art can abide by. You have provided four different standards:

-Global ("in 'the real world' 1/6th of the population in Chinese, 1/6th is Indian, and another 1/6th is African. Less than 1/5th of the world is white/Caucasian, spread out over three continents.")

-National ("
The only Caucasians in China are Russians, whose numbers have been shrinking. They represent 0.011% of the population. All visible minorities in China are people we Westerners would consider to look "Chinese", coming from South-East Asia"),

-Continental ("
North American art should reflect North America")

-Artist intention ("
If it's meant to reflect the world, yes.
If it's meant to reflect Mexico, it should reflect Mexican demographics and diversity").

There are no clear guidelines to help artists know which standard they should be using.

 

If people across the globe are buying Western media despite it not reflecting global demographics let alone their own local ethnic mix then clearly that type of diversity in said media is not a priority to non-Westerners.

This is a non valid experiment. All you know is that non Westerners buy X amount of Western media. Your data does not include the amount of Western media they buy when the prevailing environment includes them more. For all you know, Hollywood might be leaving billions on the table. Or not.

No valid conclusion can be made from this single data set, including the conclusion you've decided to come to. As experiments go, it is fundamentally flawed in every single way. It doesn't even qualify as evidence, let alone proof of anything.
 

This is a non valid experiment. All you know is that non Westerners buy X amount of Western media. Your data does not include the amount of Western media they buy when the prevailing environment includes them more. For all you know, Hollywood might be leaving billions on the table. Or not.

No valid conclusion can be made from this single data set, including the conclusion you've decided to come to. As experiments go, it is fundamentally flawed in every single way. It doesn't even qualify as evidence, let alone proof of anything.
This seems deliberately hyperbolic. The buying habits of people doesn't even constitute evidence of peoples' priorities? And it's bizarre to describe my comment as an experiment and holding it to the standards of experimentation when it's not an experiment at all but an observation of peoples' behavior.
 

This seems deliberately hyperbolic. The buying habits of people doesn't even constitute evidence of peoples' priorities? And it's bizarre to describe my comment as an experiment and holding it to the standards of experimentation when it's not an experiment at all but an observation of peoples' behavior.

It's not even a valid observation. You have no control group. For all you know they're buying 10 times less than they would do if things were otherwise. You have absolutely no way of knowing.
 

It's not even a valid observation. You have no control group. For all you know they're buying 10 times less than they would do if things were otherwise. You have absolutely no way of knowing.
My comment wasn't about the optimal makeup of the cast of a Hollywood movie in order for studios to make money, it was about the double standard being used to judge Western media. JD wants to criticize Western creators for their lack of characters corresponding to global demographics and at the same time defend non-Westerners who have even less diverse art. His justification is to resort to consumption patterns of Westerners and non-Westerners. If it's wrong to use such evidence then complain to him about it.
 

Swimming way upthread. Sorry, I'm slow. :p

The difference here being that there are actual examples, either in text or in images, of EVERY one of those characters and archetypes. Not only can you play a half devil, to use that example, but, there are fifteen different images of what you look like, complete write-ups detailing your history in the game world and how you fit into it. Even, in some editions, suggestions for naming conventions.

Now, you can cue the argument over how big your horns and tail should be, but, even then, you have examples of both in text and in images.

But nowhere, for a very long time, were there any images of PC's of color. I remember back when the first D&D movie came out and it had a *gasp* black elf and this was actually an issue. People actually commented on this. Elves can't be black after all. Only evil elves are black... oops... ummm... err.. I guess it's ok to have a black elf... went the conversation.

For a very long time THIS:

heroes.jpg


was the face of D&D. Notice what's missing?

I like how this group does give representation to gold-skinned people. ;)

I love Dragonlance, but yes, its depictions were very, very white. If my dreams come true and Dragonlance becomes a new long-running tv show (family friendly "Game of Thrones"), I really hope that some diversity works its way in there. Casting Riverwind and Goldmoon with Native American actors would be a good start.
 


Yes, but those attempts came after the huge increase in overseas demand for Hollywood movies, they are not what caused the demand.


No, the point is that you aren't providing a clear standard for diversity that art can abide by. You have provided four different standards:

-Global ("in 'the real world' 1/6th of the population in Chinese, 1/6th is Indian, and another 1/6th is African. Less than 1/5th of the world is white/Caucasian, spread out over three continents.")

-National ("
The only Caucasians in China are Russians, whose numbers have been shrinking. They represent 0.011% of the population. All visible minorities in China are people we Westerners would consider to look "Chinese", coming from South-East Asia"),

-Continental ("
North American art should reflect North America")

-Artist intention ("
If it's meant to reflect the world, yes.
If it's meant to reflect Mexico, it should reflect Mexican demographics and diversity").

There are no clear guidelines to help artists know which standard they should be using.

Why in all the worlds would there be a single, cut and dry, standard? Life is very nearly never that simple.

A movie set in Detroit in modern day will be judged differently than a movie set in Fargo in the 60's. Obviously. There literally isn't another way it could be.

The answer is, yes, all of those standards. And some others. Sometimes in combination. What is right is determined by circumstance/context, not some arbitrary maxim.
 

Why in all the worlds would there be a single, cut and dry, standard? Life is very nearly never that simple.

A movie set in Detroit in modern day will be judged differently than a movie set in Fargo in the 60's. Obviously. There literally isn't another way it could be.

The answer is, yes, all of those standards. And some others. Sometimes in combination. What is right is determined by circumstance/context, not some arbitrary maxim.
Sure, but JD seems to be very arbitrary in how he applies standards, which is the point.
 

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