D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, but JD seems to be very arbitrary in how he applies standards, which is the point.

Respectfully, it's possible that you are interpreting him that way unfairly. Far as I can tell, he is saying what I just said. Maybe take a step back, and reread his posts in that light, see if you still come to the same conclusion.

He can correct me if im wrong, but I'm fairly sure that what he is saying is precisely that the standard isn't the same for an international movie, a Chinese movie about ancient china, a Chinese movie about modern china, an American movie about San Fransisco, etc. the standards are different, but the underlying point is the same. That is, reflect the diversity of the world as it relates to the setting of the work and its audience. It's not ok for most movies set in the US, and/or made for a US audience, to be 90% white people, with the few people of color as either background or dumb stereotypes. Not simply because it's inaccurate to the potential audience, but also because representation makes a difference in people's lives.

 

[Jester David]

Respectfully, it's possible that you are interpreting him that way unfairly. Far as I can tell, he is saying what I just said. Maybe take a step back, and reread his posts in that light, see if you still come to the same conclusion.

He can correct me if im wrong, but I'm fairly sure that what he is saying is precisely that the standard isn't the same for an international movie, a Chinese movie about ancient china, a Chinese movie about modern china, an American movie about San Fransisco, etc. the standards are different, but the underlying point is the same. That is, reflect the diversity of the world as it relates to the setting of the work and its audience. It's not ok for most movies set in the US, and/or made for a US audience, to be 90% white people, with the few people of color as either background or dumb stereotypes. Not simply because it's inaccurate to the potential audience, but also because representation makes a difference in people's lives.

Pretty much.

I *do* hold Hollywood movies to slightly different standards. Western movies should represent the totality of America, which so far they seldom do. Especially with the amount of white washing that happens.
They are also released widely internationally, more than any other type of cinema. Of the top 50 movies of 2016, only two are non-Western. And of the top ten movies in China for 2016, seven are Western. More than any other country, America is releasing movies globally and should think globally in term of representation. Especially for big globe-spanning or science fiction films.
(When 2/3rd of the western box office are Bollywood films, I'll expect them to have broader representation as well.)

Now, this is just blockbusters. Not what I would qualify as "art". Corporate works are seldom "art".
Actual artists get far more latitude. Yeah, indie films *should* consider representation and diversity like anyone else, but they have different challenges. Like just getting the movie made at all. Ditto other forms of art, really. Far be it from me to crowd someone's artistic vision, be it literary or a sculpture or a painting. Yeah, it's nice if books include women and people of colour (or leave interpretation open to the reader). But I don't want to force someone to alter their vision: that's effectively a form of censorship. Which is a big "no no" from me.

D&D doesn't really get the art pass though. It's a game. And a corporate work. I'm not sure it qualifies as art by any definition...
(A session of D&D might qualify as "performance art", but the game itself is more like a paint set and canvas than art itself.)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

i care more about publishers than artists when it comes to diversity. Publishers should be looking for diverse voices, to counter the biases and other factors that muffle diverse voices in the status quo.

 

[Ovinomancer]

When was the last time you went to a Bollywood movie in the local theater?
How many Chinese movies are released in non-indie North American theaters? What did you think of Mei Ren Yu? It's the #9 movie of the year after all.

Move the goalposts, much? Let's say that I did go see a Bollywood movie in my local theater (I've actually done this). What does that now say?

Let's say that I'm not a huge fan of Wuxia, and haven't seen whatever title you Googled? What does that say? What does is say in conjunction of my having seen a Bollywood movie?

The answer is: Nothing. So, let's stop trying to drag persons into the argument just beat them up about their individual consumption habits when it 1) doesn't assist your point about general art at all and b) really seems more aimed at showcasing that person's lack of whatever trait you want to value so that they can be dismissed.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Why in all the worlds would there be a single, cut and dry, standard? Life is very nearly never that simple.

A movie set in Detroit in modern day will be judged differently than a movie set in Fargo in the 60's. Obviously. There literally isn't another way it could be.

The answer is, yes, all of those standards. And some others. Sometimes in combination. What is right is determined by circumstance/context, not some arbitrary maxim.

Sure, you can have multiple standards. I think that's healthy and helpful. But what you can't do is swap willy-nilly between them to confirm your arguments under one standards, and, when challenge under that standard, switch to a different one to dismiss the challenge and then go back and say that your first statement is still unchallenged.

If you set out an argument under one standard, you can't change horses midway through because the first one's not working for you anymore.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Pretty much.

I *do* hold Hollywood movies to slightly different standards. Western movies should represent the totality of America, which so far they seldom do. Especially with the amount of white washing that happens.
They are also released widely internationally, more than any other type of cinema. Of the top 50 movies of 2016, only two are non-Western. And of the top ten movies in China for 2016, seven are Western. More than any other country, America is releasing movies globally and should think globally in term of representation. Especially for big globe-spanning or science fiction films.
(When 2/3rd of the western box office are Bollywood films, I'll expect them to have broader representation as well.)

Now, this is just blockbusters. Not what I would qualify as "art". Corporate works are seldom "art".
Actual artists get far more latitude. Yeah, indie films *should* consider representation and diversity like anyone else, but they have different challenges. Like just getting the movie made at all. Ditto other forms of art, really. Far be it from me to crowd someone's artistic vision, be it literary or a sculpture or a painting. Yeah, it's nice if books include women and people of colour (or leave interpretation open to the reader). But I don't want to force someone to alter their vision: that's effectively a form of censorship. Which is a big "no no" from me.

D&D doesn't really get the art pass though. It's a game. And a corporate work. I'm not sure it qualifies as art by any definition...
(A session of D&D might qualify as "performance art", but the game itself is more like a paint set and canvas than art itself.)

Oh, great, an argument about what 'art' is. That's good, we're not moving into what gets excluded from 'art' in our inclusiveness discussion, and the reasons are just as arbitrary as the 'what's D&D' ones.

 

[Jester David]

Oh, great, an argument about what 'art' is. That's good, we're not moving into what gets excluded from 'art' in our inclusiveness discussion, and the reasons are just as arbitrary as the 'what's D&D' ones.

Well, that's almost a response to my post.

I really don't know why I bother.... I always end up depressed at the state of the world after participating in these threads: full of ennui, losing faith in humanity & my fellow gamers.

So I guess I'm out.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, you can have multiple standards. I think that's healthy and helpful. But what you can't do is swap willy-nilly between them to confirm your arguments under one standards, and, when challenge under that standard, switch to a different one to dismiss the challenge and then go back and say that your first statement is still unchallenged.

If you set out an argument under one standard, you can't change horses midway through because the first one's not working for you anymore.

Sure, but I don't think anyone has done that, here.

 

[evileeyore]

In my experience, people who do not pay attention to "diversity" are usually functionally exclusive even when they are very sure they are not being exclusive.

That's nice.

If you have the option of not paying attention to diversity, then you are probably not going to notice the ways in which people are usually excluded.

Every one has the option of not paying attention to diversity. It's a choice.

Why can't we just have nice things?

Because only having nice things isn't diverse. Haven't you been paying attention?

When 2/3rd of the western box office are Bollywood films, I'll expect them to have broader representation as well.

Why? If more of the world is choosing to consume Bollywood films it's likely because of the style and the actors. Changing this changes the films, at which point Bollywood isn't putting out the type of films the world wanted to consume.

Do you understand capitalism at all?

 

[FoolishFrost]

Just wandering in here, but just to point out:

The first post was about how nice it is that the D&D players handbook is selling so well.

The last posts seem to be about Bollywood, Hollywood, Inclusiveness something something?

I don't have a problem with discussion, but this seems a touch of an extreme shift in discussion. The phrase "Off Topic" does not even BEGIN to cover it.

So... Cool! It's nice to see an RPG doing so well in the common book market. I wonder if electronic books are shifting the numbers, or if they are included as well?