Afterword

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I don't find the analogy very persuasive.

For instance, the idea that a player will be "spoiled" if his/her druid is allowed to ride a wolf, even though the game rules don't expressly allow for it, strikes me as implausible. Enforcing the rules to make sure the game doesn't break is one thing; that's a basic job requirement for a referee. But blocking player input into the fiction because you think it's implausible, or you have an alternative preferred conception, is something quite different.

As a parent, I think it's a reasonable analogy. A little candy, a little ice cream, an occasional late night are all fine. They need to be put into the context of the child's life and health as a whole.

And it's not about utterly blocking all player input - it's about keeping it from detracting from the game as a whole. And that sometimes means blocking certain inputs just as it means accepting them or modifying them to fit the game and the campaign. If a 1st level druid wanted to ride a T-rex, would you let him do so just because he thought it would be a cool concept? I certainly wouldn't (block). But if he wanted his animal companion to be a compsognathus, I might allow that... IF he were to agree to be from a particular region where they are from and acknowledge that in the region where play starts, he's going to be considered a curiosity (modify). If he wanted his companion to be something not on the list but relatively normal in his home area, I'd say yes and give him the stats to use (allow). In the case of the 1st level T-rex rider, I'm maintaining the integrity of the game (appropriate balance, ability of the PC to control and feed such a beast), in the second I'm maintaining the integrity of the campaign, in the last, managing the player. And I'm not utterly blocking all player input, just the more problematic ones.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
To me, this is not a GMing problem. It's a social problem.

It is a social problem, presented within the context of a group of people gaming. Most such problems are exceedingly minor, and simply telling the GM that it is okay for them to stick by their guns is sufficient and appropriate. That's pretty much what Gygax seems to be doing, to me.

I don't need, or expect, the maker of a DVD player to tell me what to do if an unpleasant person turns up to my video night and starts spoiling the movies for everyone else. Similarly, I don't think the rules of an RPG provide a solution for people who want to spoil the game for others. It's a social problem, which has to be solved socially.

The game *is* a social situation - you can't readily separate the two. The DMG is not just "rules of the game". It is also advice on making the game work, in a practical sense - and that can and will include social aspects, then and today.

Gygax was not writing for *you*, so what you, personally, need now is not really relevant. He wasn't generally writing to mature adults who are apt to assert their authority confidently but without ruffling feathers. Do you forget how horribly awkward and ungainly young geeks can be at handling social interaction issues? Young geeks in the 1970s, even! Gygax was not in a position to give advice on social problems, in general. But he was writing to an audience that, on the whole, had a lot of socialization issues. Giving them something that operated within the context of the game gave them a way to keep things rolling, so the gathering could become a framework upon which to build those much-needed social interaction skills!

I don't think he was thinking in those terms, mind you. He didn't separate between rules issues and social issues - they were all just things that a GM might encounter. Which makes sense - the updated "How to Win Friends and Influence People" wasn't going to be published until 1981. I don't think identifying social/people issues as a separate thing that could be solved with general approaches was really mainstream in the US at the time.

Today, we can and do give better advice - but it largely boils down to much the same thing. Gygax merely lacked nuance.

Nor do I think it is helpful for the rulebook, or the gamer culture more generally, to label players who have chosen option A as "munchkins" or "problem players". (There is a fair bit of this in the 2nd ed AD&D PHB.) If option A is an option that is bad for the game, then why is the rulebook permitting it?

Well, we have learned a lot since Gygax's time, too. We can have a more nuanced approach today, because we understand what people are in the games for better.

But, a hammer used well builds a house, and used improperly sends you to the hospital with a smashed thumb. The general case is that option A is not actually all that bad for the game, but a player misusing it is bad for the game.

I guess my issue with this is that I don't see how Gygax's quote applies. I mean, this is a player asking "Do you mind if I cheat?" and the GM answers "Yes I do. Please don't." I'm having trouble seeing how there is much more to it than that.

For a new, socially awkward GM, permission to (in fact, urging to) do exactly that is valuable. That's largely what Gygax seems to have been doing.

I do think he wording does leave holes for misinterpretation, I grant you, so that GMs might tend to take it as license to be egotistical jerks. Much of his writing does, to me, come across as a bit pretentious, which would support such an interpretation.
 

Hussar

Legend
As a parent, I think it's a reasonable analogy. A little candy, a little ice cream, an occasional late night are all fine. They need to be put into the context of the child's life and health as a whole.

And it's not about utterly blocking all player input - it's about keeping it from detracting from the game as a whole. And that sometimes means blocking certain inputs just as it means accepting them or modifying them to fit the game and the campaign. If a 1st level druid wanted to ride a T-rex, would you let him do so just because he thought it would be a cool concept? I certainly wouldn't (block). But if he wanted his animal companion to be a compsognathus, I might allow that... IF he were to agree to be from a particular region where they are from and acknowledge that in the region where play starts, he's going to be considered a curiosity (modify). If he wanted his companion to be something not on the list but relatively normal in his home area, I'd say yes and give him the stats to use (allow). In the case of the 1st level T-rex rider, I'm maintaining the integrity of the game (appropriate balance, ability of the PC to control and feed such a beast), in the second I'm maintaining the integrity of the campaign, in the last, managing the player. And I'm not utterly blocking all player input, just the more problematic ones.

I just have a really, really large problem with the subtext of the analogy in that players are all immature and cannot be trusted to responsibly contribute to the game without a parent looking over their shoulder and making sure they don't go too far.

I'd much rather use an analogy that doesn't represent players as incompetent jerks who want to ride T-Rex's at 1st level while the hard working DM is only using his authority to make the game better.

It really is rather condescending.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I just have a really, really large problem with the subtext of the analogy in that players are all immature and cannot be trusted to responsibly contribute to the game without a parent looking over their shoulder and making sure they don't go too far.

I'd much rather use an analogy that doesn't represent players as incompetent jerks who want to ride T-Rex's at 1st level while the hard working DM is only using his authority to make the game better.

It really is rather condescending.

Lots of players are immature. I started playing as a 12-year old and I know plenty who started earlier. Discussions of riding brass dragons with vorpal claws - those things happened. Fortunately, we never put it into a game. And lots of players, even as adults, make bad choices - binge on things they should binge on or let their id get out of control.

But even with more mature players, there is often a lot of PC myopia. They want their cool concept no matter the cost to the situation around them. The game works well and as intended with someone who has a longer view and more complete information to manage the mix and who feels he has the authority to do so as necessary. This afterword, after all of the words before it, serves to remind DMs of that.

But yeah, the 1st level character with a T-rex is a bit of an extreme example. But one with a point. I'm interested in seeing where it goes so I won't prejudice it further.
 
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Emerikol

Adventurer
I don't see how this bears on the quality of Gygax's advice.

I GMed for an average of around 4 hours per week from 1990 to 1998, and have GMed for an average of around 4 hours per fortnight since then. That's thousands of hours of GMing. In that time I haven't followed Gygax's advice, and I don't think my game has suffered for it. As I posted upthread, the more I have prioritised the participants in my game over the "integrity" of my campaign world, the better my game, and my GMing, has become.

I guess what you value and want out of D&D is something different from what I and Gygax wanted out of our games. That goes for our players as well.

I actually took a lot of Gygax's advice on running games back in the day and I filled in anything missing using similar judgments. It's worked great for me. I realize it may not be everyone's cup of tea. That is okay. The way I play works great for me though and I have plenty of players wanting the same.
 

innerdude

Legend
I'd much rather use an analogy that doesn't represent players as incompetent jerks who want to ride T-Rex's at 1st level while the hard working DM is only using his authority to make the game better.

I do agree with you @Hussar, if there is a problem with Gary's quote, it's in the fact that it doesn't seem to enter Gary's mind that the players can and probably should be using their authority to also make the game better.

I'm sure it's based from within Gary's context, but there doesn't seem to be much thought behind the idea that players have the ability to meaningfully contribute to the fiction in ways that aren't disruptive---and with the right relationship between players and GMs, this should be a healthy, creative exchange that in no way assumes condescension on either side.

And rules text, especially a GM handbook, can have a real effect on how that creative exchange gets approached.
 

Hussar

Legend
Lots of players are immature. I started playing as a 12-year old and I know plenty who started earlier. Discussions of riding brass dragons with vorpal claws - those things happened. Fortunately, we never put it into a game. And lots of players, even as adults, make bad choices - binge on things they should binge on or let their id get out of control.

But even with more mature players, there is often a lot of PC myopia. They want their cool concept no matter the cost to the situation around them. The game works well and as intended with someone who has a longer view and more complete information to manage the mix and who feels he has the authority to do so as necessary. This afterword, after all of the words before it, serves to remind DMs of that.

But yeah, the 1st level character with a T-rex is a bit of an extreme example. But one with a point. I'm interested in seeing where it goes so I won't prejudice it further.

The condescension is in the idea that DMs aren't every bit as immature as players. That somehow that 12 year old behind a DM's screen is magically gifted with maturity and simply by the fact that he or she is running a game, they magically know what makes the game work better.

It's very condescending.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I do agree with you @Hussar, if there is a problem with Gary's quote, it's in the fact that it doesn't seem to enter Gary's mind that the players can and probably should be using their authority to also make the game better.
At different times different attitudes towards the game have been prevalent. In the 3.x era, it was all about the RAW and players could do with them. The problems identified in the 3.x era were player abuses, mostly excessive forms of optimization. In the early days, things were different. A campaign belonged to the DM and he changed the rules as he saw fit. The labels for problematic games back then were 'Killer' and 'Monty Haul' and they had everything to do with the DM.

So, yes, in the context of when it was written, it makes sense that the passage minimizes the potential contribution of players.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I find a full size human wanting to ride a normal size wolf quite implausible and would make the same call.

<snip>

Many things are possible in a fantasy world and there may be a way to use magic to make them happen.
Quite. Maybe the wolf grows so the druid can ride it. Maybe the druid shrinks when s/he sits on the wolf.

I mean, it's not as if we insist on very accurate physics when we have halflings on riding dogs: the idea that dogs will serve as riding animals on a par with a horse or pony is itself rather implausible.

I just have a really, really large problem with the subtext of the analogy in that players are all immature and cannot be trusted to responsibly contribute to the game without a parent looking over their shoulder and making sure they don't go too far.
Lots of players are immature. I started playing as a 12-year old and I know plenty who started earlier.
The condescension is in the idea that DMs aren't every bit as immature as players.
I agree with Hussar completely on this. The idea that GMs have some sort of insight or maturity that players lack is ridiculous.

There are good game-design reasons to remove players from certain aspects of adjudication in respect of the actions they declare for their PCs. Because in respect of that adjudication, players have a conflict of interest.

In my view, much of what Gygax has to say in his DMG about GM authority is dealing precisely with such adjudication issues: he is emphasising the role of the GM in adjudicating fictional positioning, and its implications for action resolution. (He doesn't use quite that terminology, because the terminology hadn't been invented yet, but the I regard the ideas as fairly clear.)

But there is no general reason to subordinate the judgements and contributions of players to those of the GM.

if there is a problem with Gary's quote, it's in the fact that it doesn't seem to enter Gary's mind that the players can and probably should be using their authority to also make the game better.

<snip>

there doesn't seem to be much thought behind the idea that players have the ability to meaningfully contribute to the fiction in ways that aren't disruptive
Agreed. Completely agreed.

At different times different attitudes towards the game have been prevalent.

<snip>

So, yes, in the context of when it was written, it makes sense that the passage minimizes the potential contribution of players.
I don't disagree that there is a clear historical explanation for why Gygax wrote the advice that he did. But that still doesn't make it good advice.
 

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