Ahsoka - SPOILERS

[pukunui]

This is a meaningless definition. Luke is a Grey Jedi, because he acts against the wishes of the last member of the Jedi Council.

Some people have called Luke a grey Jedi too.

Isn't that number 4?

Derp you quoted me before I finished post.

Yes, I did. LOL.

Honestly, I think that's a terrible use of the term. Qui-Gon isn't a gray jedi in the sense of being between the light and dark sides. He's a bit of a maverick, that's all.

OK.

 

[Zardnaar]

Some people have called Luke a grey Jedi too.


Yes, I did. LOL.


OK.

Luke's a Jedi he's got the as trained by Yoda t-shirt.

That's canon and EU. He changed the rules in EU canon I don't think there's enough information.

Personally I think the Jedi should go with the rule of twos. Master and apprentice no centralized council.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I'd argue one is always malicious when one is choking the life out of someone.

And that is where the fine line between choking until unconscious and choking to death/snapping the neck comes into play. There are plenty of action movies and such where the good guy will choke someone out, but not keep holding it until the person is dead.

 

[RangerWickett]

Other Force traditions interest me, but I've never been a fan of "Grey" Jedi, as it seems to be "I just want to Force Choke and Lightning people without falling to the Dark Side".

I played in a Star Wars game where one of my friends had the character concept of very friendly, nice person who wanted to force choke people and shoot force lightning, so he had to keep on committing arbitrary acts of cruelty just to keep his dark side points high enough. He would always apologize later, but he had to kick puppies and stuff so that he could wield the true power that he wanted.

 

[Vael]

Some people have called Luke a grey Jedi too.


Yes, I did. LOL.


OK.

Then yes, I'd call it a meaningless term. Most of the protagonist Jedi don't fufill the full requirements of a Jedi, calling them Grey is not useful.

Admittedly, I think the core problem is that we have Jedi = Light Side, Sith = Dark Side, which is an oversimplification. I don't like calling the Jensaarai Grey Jedi, just alternate Force wielding tradition that has their own struggles with the Light/Dark sides of the Force.

ETA:

I played in a Star Wars game where one of my friends had the character concept of very friendly, nice person who wanted to force choke people and shoot force lightning, so he had to keep on committing arbitrary acts of cruelty just to keep his dark side points high enough. He would always apologize later, but he had to kick puppies and stuff so that he could wield the true power that he wanted.

I mean, do what you want in your own campaigns, but I'd just call that a genial Dark Side force user.

 

[Zardnaar]

And that is where the fine line between choking until unconscious and choking to death/snapping the neck comes into play. There are plenty of action movies and such where the good guy will choke someone out, but not keep holding it until the person is dead.

I played in a Star Wars game where one of my friends had the character concept of very friendly, nice person who wanted to force choke people and shoot force lightning, so he had to keep on committing arbitrary acts of cruelty just to keep his dark side points high enough. He would always apologize later, but he had to kick puppies and stuff so that he could wield the true power that he wanted.

You don't need to do that in games allowing dark side characters.

If you want to use the darkside in most of them you just use it very rarely and you have to atone/get rid of the dark side points. Think Luke got a DSP on the Dearhstar II.

SWSE did have a force tradition that sort of allowed dark side use but I don't think it was unlimited.

One thing I did like in some of the final novels of the old EU was the relationship between Luke's kid and a Sith girl. They liked each other and she would resort to using the dark side as convenience to save him. Working together vs greater mutual threat sort of deal.

It was kinda funny when she proclaimed the Darkside was more powerful and Luke invited her to probe him using the force and give it all she's got. Think she was bounced across the room. Her redemption arc failed she couldn't stop resorting to the dark side when convenient. She was interesting character the rest of the novels were kinda bleah.

Not all Darksiders are Sith for example. Why Palpatine hated the Nightsisters was because they were content to stay on Dathmir for the most part vs seeking greater power.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I played in a Star Wars game where one of my friends had the character concept of very friendly, nice person who wanted to force choke people and shoot force lightning, so he had to keep on committing arbitrary acts of cruelty just to keep his dark side points high enough. He would always apologize later, but he had to kick puppies and stuff so that he could wield the true power that he wanted.

Although a little silly, that is an example of what is bad with binary systems that have no shades of grey. While people love to hate on the D&D alignment system, it at least allows for those shades of grey/in-between characters.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's because without moral complexity they quickly run out of interesting stories and characters. Star Wars managed to sustain black and white morality for about 1.9 movies.

The entire OT has the same morality, and it has moral complexity from the first half of episode 4 when Han shoots first.

Moral complexity does not require the sort of ambiguity being discussed here, nor for the Force itself to be ambiguous.

They all do some stuff that isn’t perfectly good (like I said already upthread, being Light Side doesn’t require that), without ever being “grey” in the sense of balancing light and dark sides. They aren’t grey, they’re just imperfect.

From what I briefly read, he is labeled as Grey because he is willing to go against Jedi orders when he thinks he knows better.

Well, he does know better, but yeah that doesn’t make him grey. Even the council respect him as a Jedi Master, he just isn’t willing to be a politician so he isn’t on the council.

From other brief readings, there was a Grey Jedi Order founded in 132 BBY, but I am guessing that is only EU/Legends stuff now.

EU, yeah. “Grey” force users are all over the EU.

Other Force traditions interest me, but I've never been a fan of "Grey" Jedi, as it seems to be "I just want to Force Choke and Lightning people without falling to the Dark Side".

Pretty much.

If you allow yourself to by guided by the Force, you are acting without free will. And if the light side denies free will, it cannot be "good".

This is an absurd leap. Being guided by the force does not mean acting without free will by any reasonable stretch of imagination. Quo-Gon and Yoda are both guided by the force.

But that is not how the light side works. It does not "guide" beyond the precognition it grants. The teachings of the Jedi order guide, which is why they indoctrinate small children. Baylan and Ahsoka illustrate this. They use the light side of the force. they fight calmly, without anger. They do not gain strength from needless cruelty. They do not shoot lightning from their fingers or control the minds of others. But both reject the teachings of the jedi order (as Luke eventually also learns to do) and make their own moral decisions.

There isn’t a light side to use, they use the force, and don’t seem to directly tap into thier own darkness for power. Beyond that, I’m not ready to discuss them in depth until the show is done.

Broadly speaking there's several thoughts on Grey Jedi.

1. Force user that's not a member of the Jedi order.

2. Jedi who can use the light and darkside.

3. Jedi transitioning to the dark side or dark Jedi transitioning to the light.

4. Jedi not obeying or independent of the Jedi council/order (if it exists)

Baylans probably a dark Jedi even if that term isn't used in show.

Only number 2 makes any sense for the term. Calling the Matukai “grey” is silly. They’re more strictly Light than the Jedi.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

There isn’t a light side to use, they use the force, and don’t seem to directly tap into their own darkness for power. Beyond that, I’m not ready to discuss them in depth until the show is done.

Well, Baylan was specifically trained as a Jedi in the old days before Order 66, and Shin was trained by him, as he put it: "not to be a Jedi, but to be better than them." Filoni also specifically gave them the orange light sabers to show they are not Sith or as outright evil as the Sith. And Shin also did a Force Choke on Sabine in episode 5, so they are capable of the dark-side powers.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well, Baylan was specifically trained as a Jedi in the old days before Order 66, and Shin was trained by him, as he put it: "not to be a Jedi, but to be better than them." Filoni also specifically gave them the orange light sabers to show they are not Sith or as outright evil as the Sith. And Shin also did a Force Choke on Sabine in episode 5, so they are capable of the dark-side powers.

Personally I think Baylan and Shin are both dark Jedi. I suspect Shin will either kill Baylan or get a redemption arc.

She may also be Baylans daughter (Morgan her mother?).