Ahsoka - SPOILERS

[Hussar]

Damn right I do. And it was the whole point of the Rebellion in the first place. If these people blindly followed orders they would still be Imperial.

There's a little bit of a difference between blindly following orders and directly disobeying a direct order, getting the people who followed you killed, and then perjuring yourself and a major leader in order to cover up your crimes.

And then being able to walk away with a nod and a wink from Mon Mothra who flat out knows that Hera is lying. So, you've got the highest levels of government conspiring to cover up a MAJOR crime committed by a high level officer. And everyone is jumping over themselves to pat them on the back for doing the right thing.

And then you wonder why the New Republic is incompetent? When officers can ignore orders so long as they know the right people who can and will conspire to commit fraud to cover up their crimes? Get people under your command killed while disobeying orders? No problem. They're the "good guys", so, it's okay.

Gee, I wonder why no one seems to trust the New Republic. Imagine that.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There's a little bit of a difference between blindly following orders and directly disobeying a direct order, getting the people who followed you killed, and then perjuring yourself and a major leader in order to cover up your crimes.

A bad order, from someone who is a suspected enemy collaborator. Disobeying a bad order is never stupid. If the fleet had acted correctly no one would have been killed.

And then being able to walk away with a nod and a wink from Mon Mothra who flat out knows that Hera is lying. So, you've got the highest levels of government conspiring to cover up a MAJOR crime committed by a high level officer.

Because that's the nature of this government. Mon Mothma has disobeyed plenty of orders herself. An technically, is a traitor and a spy.

And everyone is jumping over themselves to pat them on the back for doing the right thing.

Because it was the right thing. And doing the right thing is always better than obeying bad orders.

And then you wonder why the New Republic is incompetent? When officers can ignore orders so long as they know the right people who can and will conspire to commit fraud to cover up their crimes? Get people under your command killed while disobeying orders? No problem. They're the "good guys", so, it's okay.

The least competent officer was the one who went by the book.

Gee, I wonder why no one seems to trust the New Republic. Imagine that.

Indeed, thats why people who like blindly following orders like Thrawn. They value conformity ahead of liberty.

 

[Zardnaar]

I, conversely, love these lightsaber fights. They look like sword fights. No random unnecessary spins and flips or weak wavering poses, just strong stances and strikes.

Same I prefer them and say RotJ over Yoda imitating Sonic the Hedgehog.

 

[Hussar]

Indeed, thats why people who like blindly following orders like Thrawn. They value conformity ahead of liberty.

Again, not "blindly following orders". Just because you happen not to like your orders, you don't get to pick and choose. That's how military junta's start. You really, really don't want your military leaders to be able to bypass their civilian oversight and you REALLY don't want a corrupt civilian oversight. And that's exactly what this was. Corruption. That's what corruption looks like. Just because you happen to like them, doesn't change the fact that this is actually pretty bad.

 

[Nikosandros]

Again, not "blindly following orders". Just because you happen not to like your orders, you don't get to pick and choose. That's how military junta's start. You really, really don't want your military leaders to be able to bypass their civilian oversight and you REALLY don't want a corrupt civilian oversight. And that's exactly what this was. Corruption. That's what corruption looks like. Just because you happen to like them, doesn't change the fact that this is actually pretty bad.

It seems to me that you are applying a real-world analysis to a space opera. In the context of SW, it is (in general) clear that there is a greater good and the heroes are willing to go against the rules to uphold it. It's like police movies from the 80s. The hero cop often broke rules and disobeyed direct orders so that he could bring the criminals to justice (or more often, so that he could kill them). In RL such a cop would be an extreme danger, in the context of those movies, he was the hero.

 

[Hussar]

It seems to me that you are applying a real-world analysis to a space opera. In the context of SW, it is (in general) clear that there is a greater good and the heroes are willing to go against the rules to uphold it. It's like police movies from the 80s. The hero cop often broke rules and disobeyed direct orders so that he could bring the criminals to justice (or more often, so that he could kill them). In RL such a cop would be an extreme danger, in the context of those movies, he was the hero.

Oh, sure, I get that.

I was more questioning the whole "the New Republic is so incompetent" bit. Suddenly the senator that wants to stop Hera doesn't actually look like all that much of a bad guy when you step back and look at it. He doesn't even need to be compromised by Imperial ties (although it's pretty much a given that he is - mostly because Star Wars is still very much black hats and white hats) to be pretty justified in not trusting Hera.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Again, not "blindly following orders". Just because you happen not to like your orders, you don't get to pick and choose. That's how military junta's start.

And the New Republic is, in effect, a Junta. Junta's are not inherently evil, nor are the dictators they replace inherently good.

You really, really don't want your military leaders to be able to bypass their civilian oversight and you REALLY don't want a corrupt civilian oversight. And that's exactly what this was. Corruption.

Yes, the order was corrupt. So I would prefer leaders who disregard corrupt orders.

I mean, if you want to be pedantic about it, the order was illegal. It bypassed the chain of command - Hera is answerable directly to the head of New Republic military (Leia), in the absence of orders from her she acts with her authority. It was also an order to interfere with the actions of private citizens going about their lawful business. Again, an illegal order. But such legal pedantry is not the New Republic's style.


You do realise that the "good soldiers follow orders" mantra that the clone troopers chant after order 66 is intended ironically?

 

[Zardnaar]

Oh, sure, I get that.

I was more questioning the whole "the New Republic is so incompetent" bit. Suddenly the senator that wants to stop Hera doesn't actually look like all that much of a bad guy when you step back and look at it. He doesn't even need to be compromised by Imperial ties (although it's pretty much a given that he is - mostly because Star Wars is still very much black hats and white hats) to be pretty justified in not trusting Hera.

Is he a traitor or just a putz?

 

[Morrus]

I mean, if you want to be pedantic about it, the order was illegal. It bypassed the chain of command - Hera is answerable directly to the head of New Republic military (Leia), in the absence of orders from her she acts with her authority. It was also an order to interfere with the actions of private citizens going about their lawful business. Again, an illegal order. But such legal pedantry is not the New Republic's style.

How do you know these are illegal orders in the New Republic? Or that that is how the chain of command works? It's not the US, or the UK. I don't think we can automatically project our own laws and systems onto it and declare them fact.

 

[delericho]

Is he a traitor or just a putz?

Oddly, it's probably most interesting if that is never actually revealed.

It looks very much like the New Republic is just unavoidably doomed from its inception - in order to run a Galaxy-spanning government they need to absorb much of the Imperial bureaucracy, which itself was absorbed from the Old Republic... and that was manifestly (and deliberately) corrupted. So they've got a vast number of people who are actively working for the Empire in various ways, you've got another big slice who happily shifted their loyalties at least once (and would do so again), you've got a load of people who just want the constant turmoil to be over, and that's before you get the huge number of apathetic, incompetent, and pettily self-serving individuals.

And, actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out the New Republic were still running those very same prisons we saw in Andor, with nobody ever really being released - it's quite possible that nobody has gotten around to noticing them, never mind getting them closed.