Alchemical Fireballs?

[Grundle]

However, the question is, under the current rules, without using house rules, what DOES happen when someone gets doused with 2 gallons of alchemist's fire

Or more generally put, what damage would be caused by multiple "doses" of AF?

I seem to recall that in the FRCS, there is an sample adventure of a green dragon's lair, the entrance to which protected by several traps. One of which caused several vial of AF to fall on the victim. I don't have the FRCS with me at the moment, but if someone can access it, it could shed some light on this question.

 

[kreynolds]

Or more generally put, what damage would be caused by multiple "doses" of AF?

I seem to recall that in the FRCS, there is an sample adventure of a green dragon's lair, the entrance to which protected by several traps. One of which caused several vial of AF to fall on the victim. I don't have the FRCS with me at the moment, but if someone can access it, it could shed some light on this question.

Creatures caught directly in the area of effect suffer attacks from 4 flasks (with each flask dealing 1d6 direct hit damage, and 1 splash damage). Creatures within 5 feet of the area suffer splash damage. It's on page 303, Fiery Hallway.

 

[Psifon]

There isn't a direct rule, and I never said there was. The spell itself has a pretty obvious intent. Any DM can alter that intent however they please, but creating incendiary grenades was not the intention of the spell.

Ah, OK, so this is your opinion as to the intent of the spell. Ok, that clear then.

Yes, there would be a big ol' problem. Alchemist's fire ignites when it contacts air, not when it hits something. How are you going to shrink it and keep it out of contact with air? No doubt, someone here thinks they can shrink a gallon of the stuff in a barrell, and then pour out the alchemist's fire into a smaller container, but that won't work. Because the alchemist's fire has left the shrunken container, the liquid itself is going to immediately expand, and if it hits the air, boom.

If you are talking about shrinking just the liquid, then you have the problem you are describing here so long as all you do is shrink the liquid. On the other hand if you turn it into a cloth like item it isn't alchemist fire anymore and it wouldn't burn. Now for my trick, I am shrinking the whole container, so this is not an issue.

 

[Psifon]

Creatures caught directly in the area of effect suffer attacks from 4 flasks (with each flask dealing 1d6 direct hit damage, and 1 splash damage). Creatures within 5 feet of the area suffer splash damage. It's on page 303, Fiery Hallway.

See, now I am aware of this precident. The thing is, I feal that it is much LESS cheezy to do it my way. Here's why:

Suppose I was to take 16 flasks of alchemist fire, and shrink them all down at once. Now I throw them at a foe like a handfull of gravel. Now, technically, that foe should take 16d6 for 2 rounds, and give you 16 points of splash damage, as each individual flask hit.

Even better. What if I design a x-bow bolt that is made to hold 16 shrunken flasks of alchemist fire. Each one would be about the size of a grain of rice. I could pack them all into a little pin-cushon looking head (OK maybe all 16 wouldn't fit, but you get the idea). Now I can shoot this bad boy for the same 16d6x2 damage against the targeted foe (casting true strike first of course, just to be sure).

Hmm, lets see, at what point does this do MORE damage than full emersion in lava?

No, even I, the self-proclamed min-maxing muncking king that I am find this too nuclear for my sensibilities. I really think that adding up all the AF and counting it as a "larger weapon" makes more sense and is more balancing than the alternative.

In the above example, 4 flasks at once would only do 2d6 damage. This seems reasonable, since they will overlap in effect somewhat.

I really think that the progression I am using to define the damage of this volume of alchemist fire is necessary for game balance. Of course other alternatives may also exist, and I think it would be fun to read some other ideas of how to handle this, but just adding 1d6 per flask of AF is broken when combined with shrink item, IMO. Legal but broken.

 

[Grundle]

Creatures caught directly in the area of effect suffer attacks from 4 flasks (with each flask dealing 1d6 direct hit damage, and 1 splash damage). Creatures within 5 feet of the area suffer splash damage. It's on page 303, Fiery Hallway.

So according to WotC in this instance, N x d6 damage to a target with N successful ranged touch attacks, correct?

Psfion's AF arrows (as he would like them to work) deal something like 1d8(?) damage to a target on a single successful normal ranged attack. He gets the benefit of a better range increment (from crossbow vs thrown) but require a 3rd level spell to be cast.

Doesn't sound like Psfion's bolts are overpowered from a game mechanics standpoint IMHO.

Some other questions to ponder:

* How do you load a bolt with a little jar tied to its tip into a crossbow? Isn't there a tight little "tube" (the diameter of the bolt ) through which the bolt must travel?

* Won't the aerodynamics of the bolt be negatively impacted by the presense of this little jar on its tip?

* It seems this would be better done with a bow and arrow than with a crossbow and bolt. One could imagine that firing these special missiles might require an exotic ranged weapon of some sort with a reduced range increment to account for the modified missile.

 

[Psifon]

Psfion's AF arrows (as he would like them to work) deal something like 1d8(?) damage to a target on a single successful normal ranged attack. He gets the benefit of a better range increment (from crossbow vs thrown) but require a 3rd level spell to be cast.

I'm claiming 4d6 for a 2 gallon jug of alchemist fire, assuming the "damage from large weapons rule"

* How do you load a bolt with a little jar tied to its tip into a crossbow? Isn't there a tight little "tube" (the diameter of the bolt ) through which the bolt must travel?

The jar is actually shaped like the "head" of a x-bow bolt. This would be pretty easy I figure, just measure the x-bolt's diamiter, and make a jar that is 12x that diameter, and deep enough to give you the 2 gallons you want. I figured it out once, and a 2 gallon jar would shrink down to a cylinder the diamiter of a dime and a little over 1.5x as deep as a dime is wide.

* Won't the aerodynamics of the bolt be negatively impacted by the presense of this little jar on its tip?

DM's call. If so, this would be expressed as a penalty to hit.

* It seems this would be better done with a bow and arrow than with a crossbow and bolt. One could imagine that firing these special missiles might require an exotic ranged weapon of some sort with a reduced range increment to account for the modified missile.

Again, DM's call, but since all you are getting out of the x-bow is better range, and a x-bow is a pretty simple machine, I can't imagine that the device would need too much modification. Just make the jar/head (jar-head?) the same diameter as the bolt. No problem.

 

[kreynolds]

give you 16 points of splash damage, as each individual flask hit.

Only other targets caught within 5-feet suffer splash damage, not the target struck by the flask itself.

 

[toberane]

kreynolds--

You made some good points about alchemists fire igniting on contact with air.

This would take 2 spells, but yuo could make a flask with2 compartments, and divide the ingredients into 2 inter groups, then shrink the inert liquids, put them into the tiny container, and when the container shatters, the ingredients expand, combine, and become alchemists fire.

There is something of a precedent for this. In the second 3E module to come out (Forge of Fury, I believe) there is a trapped door that contains tanks of these two materials attached to a triggering mchanism. When the door opens, it causes the materials to combine and sprays the alchemists fire onto the person opening the door (kinda like the explosives in Die Hard 3). Luckily, I spotted the trap and disarmed it before we got hosed.

You are right about the alchemists fire expanding slower not causing more damage due to its short burning time. I didn't think it would work that way, since the object would probably take no more than a round to expand. Any longer and I think it would mention the expansion time in the spell description.

 

[aurellius]

Yes, thats a prety nasty trap in Forge of Fury, it is an Alchemist's fire flamethrower.

Uses 10 gallons per activation
does 4d6 in first round, then d6 for 10 rounds
covers 16 5' squares



Marcus

 

[Shalewind]

Can't Resist... Must... take... bait...

You could pull off something similar within the rules though. But you would need access to magic, XP, and a lot more gold than you think you'd need.

Gotta ask, BigK. How would you do it? (Assuming we were trying to eh, "rape" the poor little Shrink Item spell?)

Psifon: Question. Alright, your position is that the spell ends in a combo Activation/Impact combo right? Meaning, that the velocity of an object is maintained during or after the transformation? Correct?

This is not an attack, I'm merely asking if this is how you view the spell. If so... If I shrunk any item and toss it to the ground, i.e. four foot drop (Hey, I'm tall. ) isn't that going to cause some problems? Your shrunk campfire is going to go everywhere, most delicate items (including flasks and the like) are going to break, etc... And this is all assuming this whole velocity transference thing is all relative to the object AFTER its been reverted. (Four feet to that shrunken once inch humanoid is DEATH if you went by relative size...) My end point here is that I don't think the intent of the designers was to be CAREFUL while tossing the "Toss onto solid surface" activation clause. I know there is a command word, but still... The spell is meant to be a transport aid, and yes you are creative in coming up with alternative usages. My position on the whole velocity impact issue is going to have to be a no go.

As to the doing more damage than lava or acid issue... I view concentrated Alchemist Fire kinda like I do Thermite Plasma. I get far away from it whenever possible and don't look directly at the flare...

Ah, OK, so this is your opinion as to the intent of the spell. Ok, that clear then.

Yes, it is his opinion. Intent is Important. Intent is what causes rules to be changed in the FAQ and Erratas. Intent is what saves us from the ravaging hoards of munckins... (No offensive intended to those mild mannered munckins...)

I'm just begining to see the uses (abuses?) of the Shrink Item spell. Those of you that haven't checked out the rectangle of doom ought to.

My fav so far has got to be (in reference to Shrunk Power Items):

But this still works well as a nice present to give to your Barbarian friend. Let him carry it around, and throw it at his enemies. If he ever gives you any c-r-a-p just say the command word.