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Alignment on three axes.

Matthias

Explorer
If anybody ever wanted to play around with the alignment system, there is room for change.

Where D&D-style play (from AD&D 2E onward, except of course 4E) organizes nine distinct alignments, my playing experience implies there are at least twenty distinct alignments in practice, based on three axes rather than two.

First let's look at each axis.
The moral axis: the greater good vs. the value of the individual (Good vs. Evil)
The ethical axis: the need for public order vs. individual rights (Law vs. Chaos)
The third axis we'll call the naturalistic alignment, which is active vs. passive neutrality (Apathy vs. Balance). [Whether there is a "middle ground" allowing for some apathy mixed with balance, I will leave for you as a separate thought exercise.]

Each axis has its extremes. The extremes of the first two are familiar, so we won't need to examine those.

On the naturalistic alignment there is extreme passive neutrality, which I call Apathy. Its opposite is extreme active neutrality, which is Balance.

The passively neutral person doesn't have an opinion, and can't be bothered to form one.
The actively neutral person doesn't want to make a choice, and thinks anyone who does take sides needs to be taught the virtues of tolerance.

All of the classic partially neutral alignments (NG, LN, CN, and NE) in practice fall into one of two neutralities, passive (apathetic) or active (balanced). To briefly illustrate the differences, we'll compare all four Good alignments.


Lawful good: Laws exist to serve the greater good, but where they fail, you should try to work within the system to fix those problems.
Apathetic Good: Doesn't care about law or chaos, Good is all that matters.
Balanced Good: Laws that are just and which serve the greater good should be upheld, but when justice is perverted and laws become tyrannical, it's time to fight the power.\
Chaotic Good: Rules and regulations seldom work for the best interests of everyone involved. There's always politicians who try to play the system for their own benefit and to the harm of everyone else. Let people live free.


Apathetic Lawful is rather less common than Balanced Lawful, and similarly for Apathetic Chaotic and Balanced Chaotic. The Balanced Lawful and Balanced Chaotic alignments are more accurate labels for what most gamers think of when they describe a character as "lawful neutral" or "chaotic neutral". Concern for good vs. evil still exists in the worldviews of such people, but their attitude is one of moderation rather than absence.

Rather, complete moral apathy combined with law or chaos suggests the presence of a hive mind or a purely logical, calculating, emotionless personality; many intelligent automata and some outsiders may be accurately described as Apathetic Lawful. In contrast, the Apathetic Chaotic alignment is the epitome of unreliability and instability; the personality of someone disconnected from reality (and possibly a good portion of the native population of the Far Realm) may be described as Apathetic Chaotic.


Now we approach the "true neutrals", of which there are actually four: True Balanced, Apathetic Balanced, Balanced Apathetic, and True Apathetic.

True Balanced is the "classic" druid-style true neutrality. Moderation in all things, extremism in none.

But there are also individuals who desire Balance in either the moral or the ethical axes, and are dismissive of the other. A little more abstract and difficult to pinpoint. A being who desires to balance the greater good against the needs of the individual, and is willing to use any means available to achieve this (through order or disorder), is an Apathetic Balanced personality. A being unconcerned about what is "right or wrong" but thinks a little order with your chaos is nice, would be a Balanced Apathetic.

Then you have the True Apathetics. This alignment neatly covers any living, thinking thing which we would normally describe as having no alignment whatsoever; i.e., animals and anything else with an Intelligence score of at least 1 or 2, and possibly 3.

This so far describes sixteen of the alignments.

The other four are variations on the four alignment corners, the 'zealots'.

Traditionally we consider Good or Evil to take precedence over Law or Chaos when there is a conflict between what is the "moral" thing to do versus what is the "ethical" thing to do.

A Lawful Good person will choose to resist an unjust law (good takes precedence over law).

A Chaotic Evil person will still obey a law (a lawful act) if it means a greater personal benefit than if he just went against the social grain (a chaotic act).

There are also cases where an individual may choose to accede to the ethical demands of the situation and subordinate their personal moral belief to it.

A person who is Lawful with Good tendencies will still be inclined to obey a law even if his obedience causes harm to others. He may have personal distate for the negative effects such a law may be having on its victims; nevertheless he believes in the rule of Law as superseding Good. In this he gravitates closer to the side of Law than to the side of Good, but he maintains his allegiance to Good. A Balanced or Apathetic Lawful person will never choose Good for its own sake, but will only act in accordance with its aim of pursuing the cause of Law.

Thus we have the GL, GC, EL, and EC alignments.

Because Apathy and Balance do not lend themselves to zealotry or extremism, they will not typically take precedence over a non-neutral alignment component. You will not have a character who puts their desire for moderation between Law and Chaos over their desire to uphold Good (or Evil), for example. It just doesn't work that way.

Comments?
 

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delericho

Legend
Well, it would work. It's a bit complex for my taste, especially since my leaning is now towards eliminating alignment altogether. But, yes, it would work.
 

pemerton

Legend
First let's look at each axis.
The moral axis: the greater good vs. the value of the individual (Good vs. Evil)
The ethical axis: the need for public order vs. individual rights (Law vs. Chaos)

<snip>

Comments?
I don't understand your two axes there.

In ordinary philsophical terminology, "morality" means something like "those things we ought to do on account of our obligations to others" and "ethical" means something like "those things we ought to do to live a good life". Most, though not all, contemporary moral philosophers would regard the moral as a (very important) component of the ethical.

Also, nearly every theory of individual rights that I'm familiar with grounds them in a theory of the value of the individual.

Finally, most contemporary moral philosophers are either consequentialists, who ground their theory of the greater good in a theory of aggregate indvidual welfare (the whole of mainstream economics works in these terms); or deontologists who nevertheless think that sometimes the greater good permits overriding concerns of individual entitlements (and some deontologists furthermore have "dirty hands" accounts of this). On your picture do they all come out as evil (because of the role of individual value in their theories) or as "balanced"? That would be extremely weird.

So before we talk about a third axis I think it would help to have greater clarity in respect of the first two.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Also, it isn't really a third axis so much as splitting the Neutral component of the two main axes into two components, an Apathetic and a Balanced. So it's LABC, and GABE. Which makes 16 total alignments, from what I can determine.

LG, LA, LB, LE, AG, AA, AB, AE, BG, BA, BB, BE, CG, CB, CA, CE.
 

delericho

Legend
I don't understand your two axes there.

In ordinary philsophical terminology...

It's D&D terminology, or more specifically, post-3e D&D terminology. (I think, though I may be mistaken, that it was introduced in the 3e "Book of Vile Darkness".)

Basically, the "moral" axis is the Good/Evil axis, while the "ethical" one is the Lawful/Chaotic one.

Not that I'm claiming those are sensible definitions, of course. :)
 

pemerton

Legend
It's D&D terminology, or more specifically, post-3e D&D terminology. (I think, though I may be mistaken, that it was introduced in the 3e "Book of Vile Darkness".)

Basically, the "moral" axis is the Good/Evil axis, while the "ethical" one is the Lawful/Chaotic one.

Not that I'm claiming those are sensible definitions, of course.
Gygax used this terminology too, in Unearthed Arcana. It can be used to make a type of sense, but not in the way the OP has gone:

Good/evil = morality ie the extent to which you regard it as important to honour your duties to others;

Law/chaos = ethics ie the extent to which you regard it as important to cultivate yourself.​

So lawfuls (monks, samurai, paladins) are into self-cultivation; chaotics (rogues, barbarians, Jet Li after his process of self-discovery in Tai Chi Master) renounce self-cultivation as a goal.

Of course, this requires abandoning the idea of law/chaos as connecting to groups/individuals - D&D has always been incoherent in trying to treat the issue of self-cultivation and the issue of group affiliation as if they go together, so I think getting rid of this might actually be an improvement.

You still have the puzzle of whether the evil are those who repduiate their duties to others (as when Milton's Satan says "Evil, be thou my good") or rather those who fail in their duties to others - on the first reading there are very few evils and they're mostly vicious crazies; on the second reading the world is full of evils but they're mostly tolerable (and also don't acknowledge that they are evil - hard to reconcile with Know Alignment abilities being rampant).

On this sort of account, Lancelot - who believes in self-cultivation and fulfilling his duties to others - is LG, at least until he falls and become LE; Hitler, who believed in self-cultivation but repduiated his duties to (many) others, is LE; a wild orc who hates all living things including himself is CE; and the Waco Kid (Gene Wilder in Blazing Saddles) is CG, having given up on self-cultivation but accepting his duties to others.

This sort of account has no need of LN, CN, NG or NE. Either people self-cultivate or don't; either they fulfill their duties to others or they don't. The notion of someone who believes in a "balance" between fulfilling or repudiating their duties to others makes no sense - that's just someone who's evil, but not as evil as they might be (notoriously Hitler was kind in many of his personal relations). Likewise the notion of a "balance" between culitvating oneself, or letting one's raw nature take its course, makes no sense.

This account also doesn't have room for True Neutral that I can see. Animals obviously are unaligned - they have no duties to others (not being capable agents) and therefore are neither good nor evil; and the neither self-cultivate nor reject self-cultivation, for they have no option of existence outside their natural modes of life.

Druids, who believe in a balance of nature, are chaotic - they reject self-cultivation - but may be either good or evil depending on whether they acknowledge their obligations to others. Many traditional D&D antagonist druids - the sort who kill all those who log in their forests - are probably CE, but some might be CG and believe that they are acting in legitimate defence of others' interests.

On the model I'm putting forward you would still have to decide exactly what counts as fulfilling your duties to others. Is mere sincerity enough? - so you could have both a LG consequentialist (say JM Keynes) and a LG deontologist (say the archetypical saint, except perhaps St Francis who is probably CG). Or does the table take a vote on what counts as good for the purposes of a particular campaign? My personal view is that heroic fantasy works better with a superhero version of non-consequentialist morality - we disregard obligations to distant others, and largescale social and economic considerations (and hence don't ask the question why Storm wastes her time fighting Arcade when she could be relieving drougts the world over), and emphasise the importance of honour and individual interpersonal interactions, with some sort of background romantic understanding that when all' right with the heroes then all is right with the world.
 

pemerton

Legend
As a coda to my post above - before you used that alignment model in your game, you would want to ask - why is it important, in my game, to track characters on these two axes, of duty to others and cultivatin of self? And what does it say about the game, and the game fiction, to treat the two axes as indpendent.

4e, for instance, posits the traditional notion that those who do good will also become self-cultivators, and conversely that letting yourself go is the first step on a path towards evil and affiliation with the primordials. I think Benjamin Franklin would have agreed with that. In Blazing Saddles, the Waco Kid, in doing right by others, also begins to do right by himself; and the same pattern is seen in many Dirty Harry-style plot arcs. Even in Tai Chi Master, at the end of the movie we see Jet Li leading a monsastery of Tai Chi monks - in the end he has become Lawful again, but has just realised new dimensions to the possiblities of self-cultivation.

Conversely, if you wanted to play a Byronic or (certain flavour of) Nietzschean game then it would make sense to go the other way - self-cultivation leads to evil (think Madam Bovary), and only unfettered personalities like Byron or (a romantic view of) Napoleon are capable of really brining good to the world and giving others what they really need.

So letting the two axes operate independently strikes me as making a pretty distinctive moral and aesthetic conjecture. Or maybe you could do it as an experiment, to find out via play whether the two axes really are independent.

But simply stipulating from the outset that they are independent "in this campaign world" and that's that strikes me as somewhat unmotivated.
 

delericho

Legend
Gygax used this terminology too, in Unearthed Arcana.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Or does the table take a vote on what counts as good for the purposes of a particular campaign?

Ultimately, I think that's a requirement of any alignment system (though for "the table take a vote" one could substitute "the DM decides").

(For the rest of it, I have no comment. It's not that I disagree, or indeed agree, necessarily - I just don't really feel like getting deep into an alignment discussion at this time. :) )
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Finally, most contemporary moral philosophers are either consequentialists, who ground their theory of the greater good in a theory of aggregate indvidual welfare (the whole of mainstream economics works in these terms); or deontologists who nevertheless think that sometimes the greater good permits overriding concerns of individual entitlements (and some deontologists furthermore have "dirty hands" accounts of this). On your picture do they all come out as evil (because of the role of individual value in their theories) or as "balanced"? That would be extremely weird.

Just out of curiousity, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], did you ever read Alex Macris's article on alignment in the Escapist? He maps Lawful alignment to deontological ethics, and Chaotic to consequentialist ethics. He also applies some of Peter Singer's work to the Good-Evil axis. I'm not a philosopher by any means, but I found the article interesting.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/checkfortraps/8386-All-About-Alignment
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
This sounds like it's trying to reconcile the two types of neutral more than a third axis. If that's the goal, I liked including Unaligned.

That said, if the third axis represented the degree to which you wish to impose your alignment upon the world, it would be more clear and understandable across the nine alignments.
 

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