Alignment

[Alexander123]

That is because the majority of people consider good to be self-sacrifice and altruism and the people who were creating D&D were not creating a revolution in morality but simply going by what people accept as moral.

It is the same with torture. D&D says it is evil even though there may be those who would disagree.

 

[That Darn DM]

Just to add the already built upon discussion, which I agree the party did an evil act, that even if the Mage has a past with trolls, that is still evil.

Killing a creature because of prejudices created from a rocky past with such a creature is bad.

No spells for the cleric and serious problems with a druidic following for killing their good friend, Mr. Troll-buddy.

 

[Sekhmet]

A Lawful Good Paladin of Tyr would kill that troll, regardless of it's alignment. A troll is a monster, and monsters are known to lie, snatch babies, destroy families, etc.
That is the wrath, the retribution, and the zealous side of Good.

Your party encountered a troll that they know to not be evil. Assuming your party was made entirely of Good characters, it is not unreasonable or a major alignment shift for them to set the troll on fire. If the entire party were Chaotic Good, it would be easier for them to take exception - THIS troll is not evil, and perhaps hasn't committed any evil acts in it's life, so it shouldn't be treated as an evil monster.

However, lead by a Lawful Good PC, Trolls are monsters. This troll may be under the effects of an alignment altering/hiding spell. This troll already bears the taint of a monster, and that taint cannot be allowed to roam free.

 

[That Darn DM]

A Lawful Good Paladin of Tyr would kill that troll, regardless of it's alignment. A troll is a monster, and monsters are known to lie, snatch babies, destroy families, etc.
That is the wrath, the retribution, and the zealous side of Good.

Your party encountered a troll that they know to not be evil. Assuming your party was made entirely of Good characters, it is not unreasonable or a major alignment shift for them to set the troll on fire. If the entire party were Chaotic Good, it would be easier for them to take exception - THIS troll is not evil, and perhaps hasn't committed any evil acts in it's life, so it shouldn't be treated as an evil monster.

However, lead by a Lawful Good PC, Trolls are monsters. This troll may be under the effects of an alignment altering/hiding spell. This troll already bears the taint of a monster, and that taint cannot be allowed to roam free.

I was wrong. I looked up a bit of information and was incorrect. I got confused with a different incarnation of Tyr and the Redeemed Mindflayer bit was something from a really crappy, published book. Thinking on it, Tyr would most likely slay the creature and so would a Lawful Good Paladin.

I, personally, don't think it is a Lawful Good action, merely Lawful Neutral, but Tyr is serious business when it comes to killing.

I would still frown on the player doing it, even if he was a Paladin of Tyr. I would most likely move his alignment more toward Lawful Neutral and probably even move Tyr to Helm's place if I was inclined to run FR, but again, that is me.

But, I was wrong and Sekhmet is right here.

 

[Sekhmet]

I don't really agree with this. Paladins of Tyr have been known to be zealous and a few have gone over the line, but they don't believe in innate evil unless speaking about Demons or Devils. Half-Orcs have become Paladins of Tyr in Forgotten Realms and Priests of Tyr have been known to deal with a redeemed Mindflayer Monk of Ilmater (had to copy paste that, sorry. And yes, I didn't like that bit either).

Tyr himself would slay a troll, but I don't think a Paladin should without consequence. If that Troll was not evil, no matter if it was a monster, it's still evil to kill on sight without chance of surrender. Tyr has been known to slay agents of evil, but that mostly is Demons and Devils. Prime world creatures usually have capacity to be good. Then again, I'm hardcore into Planescape and the ambiguity there makes Eberron look like a Saturday morning cartoon.

If a Paladin did that, when a monster is showing himself to be an ally and he were to slay the monster without speaking to the creature. I would hand out punishment.

I bolded the part that really stood out to me in this argument. "Without chance of surrender."

The combat had three sides. Orc, Troll, PCs.
The Troll, seeing some Orc at their weakest (Entangled and engaged elsewhere) jumps in to get an easy meal.
The Magic User sees the Troll enter combat, and knows that it is wise to handle the new threat quickly (trolls are usually a higher priority than orcs in my books).
He handles it as he would any Troll entering combat -> sets the bastard on fire.

Nothing Evil has happened so far on the party's side. Since the troll was knocked out during combat ((without surrendering to the PCs)), the bolded idea in your quote has no bearing. The PC's did not kill something that had surrendered, they killed a monster who jumped into combat with them.

Zealousness is Lawful, not Good or Evil.

The Half Orc's alignment is not "usually" or "always".
Mind Flayers are "usually" Lawful Evil.
Trolls are "usually" Chaotic Evil.

In my books, the "usually" phrase means that, while exceptions might exist, the average PC/NPC have never encountered it, and should assume that troll was under the effect of undetectable alignment.

 

[That Darn DM]

I bolded the part that really stood out to me in this argument. "Without chance of surrender."

The combat had three sides. Orc, Troll, PCs.
The Troll, seeing some Orc at their weakest (Entangled and engaged elsewhere) jumps in to get an easy meal.
The Magic User sees the Troll enter combat, and knows that it is wise to handle the new threat quickly (trolls are usually a higher priority than orcs in my books).
He handles it as he would any Troll entering combat -> sets the bastard on fire.

Nothing Evil has happened so far on the party's side. Since the troll was knocked out during combat ((without surrendering to the PCs)), the bolded idea in your quote has no bearing. The PC's did not kill something that had surrendered, they killed a monster who jumped into combat with them.

Zealousness is Lawful, not Good or Evil.

The Half Orc's alignment is not "usually" or "always".
Mind Flayers are "usually" Lawful Evil.
Trolls are "usually" Chaotic Evil.

In my books, the "usually" phrase means that, while exceptions might exist, the average PC/NPC have never encountered it, and should assume that troll was under the effect of undetectable alignment.

Drow are Usually Evil, yet that have a god for good drow. That means there's enough in the world to keep a deity afloat.

Zealousness isn't lawful or chaotic, it's just a descriptor of what. It's a devotion to an ideal. There's Zealous priests of demogorgan... granted they're insane, but they are zealous.

I personally believe that Lawful Good characters aren't avatars of their deity, but believe in that way of life as a world view.

We could go into Good = Ethical and killing an incapacitated creature that showed itself to be an ally is unethical and dishonorable. That's chaotic and evil. Tyr is pretty serious about killing and because of that, I question if he's really a "good" deity. Published material or not. That's an evil act and Tyr shouldn't have Good and Knowledge in his portfolio if he holds onto biased and obviously bigoted beliefs. That's prejudice and that's evil and ignorant.

 

[Anditch]

The cleric cast Detect evil on the troll found no evil traces. After the spell was cast the rest of the players decided to burn the troll anyway instead of tying it up and speaking to it to find out what was going on. Then maybe appologise for attack it.

 

[JamesonCourage]

In my books, the "usually" phrase means that, while exceptions might exist, the average PC/NPC have never encountered it, and should assume that troll was under the effect of undetectable alignment.

10 to 1 the cleric or mage had a Detect Magic available. They could have easily detected for any magic on the troll (and the equipment, while they're at it), to confirm your suspicion.

If the party suspected that the troll was only attacking the orcs out of convenience, I can understand that, even though it's a pretty reactionary response. It's not entirely unrealistic, though, depending on the circumstances. However, if they went to enough trouble to Detect Evil before burning it (even though it didn't show up as Evil), I think to justify your argument, you would agree they should probably cast Detect Magic, too.

Who knows, maybe they did, and it wasn't mentioned. If they found an aura on the troll, that'd support your reasoning even more. If they didn't, it'd be against it.

 

[Dandu]

That is because the majority of people consider good to be self-sacrifice and altruism and the people who were creating D&D were not creating a revolution in morality but simply going by what people accept as moral.

It is the same with torture. D&D says it is evil even though there may be those who would disagree.

When the question is whether an act in the game of Dungeons and Dragons is good or evil in the context of what the game defines good and evil is, I think it is important not to conflate it with our own definitions of good and evil.

 

[SuperJebba]

The PCs definitely committed an evil act. I don't think it constitutes an alignment shift. People in the real world have done terrible things to each other in the heat of battle and war. I completely understand them being uncomfortable and wary that there is a seemingly decent troll fighting in their midst, but it's bad form to attack it when it didn't detect as evil.

Even if the troll was under the effects of some sort of alignment obscuring spell, that's just bad adventuring form. You don't kill that guy. You try to figure out where he came from since trolls are not usually casters.