altering d20/d&d for low magic games
- Thread starter Afrodyte
- Start date
Desdichado
Hero
Then you should be sure to point that out.Dogbrain said:
I'm working on a "low magic" campaign setting right now, or at least I feel I am.
I have one core spellcasting class, using a heavily modified magic system based on the Elements of Magic. They are fairly rare, but can become quite powerful. They will be able to make magic items along the lines of scrolls, potions, wands, and wonderous items (but at greater personal sacrifice than the current magic item creation rules).
"Magic Arms and Armor" will (hopefully) be much more rare. I'm working on a system (based on work by others) where any character can imbeu a weapon or armor with 'magic' at some personal cost to themself. And the weapons would likely only have that power (or most of it) when held by the person who invested themself into it. This means that weapons will slowly develop abilities (and a reputation for those abilities) as the character becomes more powerful. Truly powerful weapons are the stuff of legend and are fittingly known to have belonged to great and terrible people throughout time. I'm also playing with the idea of a system for allowing an heir gain limited access to ancestral items.
Just some of the stuff I'm playing with.
I have one core spellcasting class, using a heavily modified magic system based on the Elements of Magic. They are fairly rare, but can become quite powerful. They will be able to make magic items along the lines of scrolls, potions, wands, and wonderous items (but at greater personal sacrifice than the current magic item creation rules).
"Magic Arms and Armor" will (hopefully) be much more rare. I'm working on a system (based on work by others) where any character can imbeu a weapon or armor with 'magic' at some personal cost to themself. And the weapons would likely only have that power (or most of it) when held by the person who invested themself into it. This means that weapons will slowly develop abilities (and a reputation for those abilities) as the character becomes more powerful. Truly powerful weapons are the stuff of legend and are fittingly known to have belonged to great and terrible people throughout time. I'm also playing with the idea of a system for allowing an heir gain limited access to ancestral items.
Just some of the stuff I'm playing with.
What type: "new-magic". There used to be magic in the world, but there hasn't been in recorded history, then magic returns to the world.
Tweaks:
- tweak (why)
- no pre-existing magical items (flavor / logic)
- no pre-existing spells (flavor / logic)
- using Elements of Magic: Revised Edition (flavor)
- using Vitalizing varient from Unearthed Arcana (flavor / balance)
- - Fatigue/Exhaustion caused by use of Spell Points can't be magically healed (balance tweak)
- Magic can't heal non-lethal damage (flavor)
- Use a "high power" point-buy, or higher average dice roll for stats. (make up for some lost magic)
- Not use "canned" adventures and the like, considor all challenges not on CR, but on "how hard will this be for the party?" (obvious, i don't want to kill the PCs
)Why the Vitalizing tweaks? Balance in that if a Mage runs low he's in even worse shape physically, so it's dangerous to expand that much energy. Can't remove magical fatigue because if you can there's balance issues with using a tiny number of SP to cure your fatigue and thereby getting back more SP.
Why no non-lethal healing - mainly because that's how you usually see it in novels... but also it's another indication that Mages don't really understand magic fully yet.
I think in general everyone looses some power, but as long as I take that into account with the encounters I think it should be alright, and pretty fun. Definately a different feel from the other games we've done
EDIT: using class-based DEF rules from Unearthed Arcana as well
EDIT2: beh, forgot to include "magic healing converts normal damage to non-lethal damage"
Last edited:
Belegbeth
First Post
Red Spire Press said:
Well I disagree!
I think people make a mountain out of a mole-hill in their obsession with "balance." It is really ridiculous. As DM, I find myself frequently rebalancing encounters in the midst of a session. And if, after a session, I think that things have been unbalanced during that session (either PCs vs. encounters, or with some PCs excessively outshining other ones), I decide what needs to be done next time, and do it. It really is not that hard.
I've run two successful "rare magic" campaigns without significantly reengineering the rules.
One general thing that I HAVE done, though, is to eliminate a number of problematic/unsuitable spells. This is mainly in order to retain the "feel" of the campaign world (it has no Astral Plane, the Gods do not interfere directly in the affairs of mortals, etc.), but as well as to keep spellcasting and nonspellcasting classes more or less 'balanced' at higher levels. Another minor thing that I have done is to limit PCs to one or two "unique" magical items (usually items with an interesting history and character) whose abilities can grow/change over time. Note only do such items add a lot to the plot of the campaign, they eliminate the need for sacks and sacks of magic gadgets.
Oh yeah, in addition to Conaill's suggestion, an easy mechanic to use, if you are so inclined, is to employ the "Generic Classes" from Unearthed Arcana. The spellcaster class looks suitable for a "low magic" campaign, but is close enough to "standard" DnD that major changes are unnecessary.
(I *am* curious to try a fantasy campaign using d20 Modern (and possibly Grim Tales) sometime.)
wingsandsword
Legend
Some things to think about with low-magic.
Healing: Do you want PC's to hurt a lot more after fights, and be less able to go through lots of fights. With less magical healing this becomes a big concern. If you want lower magic but not a more lethal game, you might want to add Class Defense Bonuses, and nonmagical healing (like the Surgery feat from d20 Modern) should be available and encouraged.
Monsters: If you're toning down the magic level, double-check the monsters you are using. Damage Reduction Magic, or worse, Epic, becomes a lot more of a big deal. SR isn't as much of a hindrance, but if the monster generally requires lots of magic to kill (or if it has abilities that generally require magic to counter) it should be considered a significantly higher CR.
Classes: I'd suggest using a nonmagical variant of Paladin and Ranger to start, removing spells from the Assassin class (give them a bonus feat at every level they would get a new level of spells). Perhaps limit Divine and Arcane magic to one base class each (Cleric and Wizard, Druid and Sorcerer, it's your call). No Clerics means even less healing though. Bard (if it exists at all) could just be a PrC.
In some low magic games I run I have a meta-rule about party composition: one spellcaster in the party, that's it. Helps keep magic rare (magic just doesn't feel that rare when half the party is spellcasters, even though very few NPC's are and they practically never run across MI's). The Party actually went with a Bard for it's one spellcaster (Healing Magic, party buffs, and lots of utility magic), and just had that.
If you want really low magic, get rid of all main spellcasting classes. Spellcasting could be only available by Prestige Class, or you could have some feats that have to be taken at 1st level that give cantrip/orisons (like the Divine and Arcane Heritage feats from d20 Modern), and Incantations from Unearthed Arcana as your only PC-available magic.
Also, the style of play becomes more important, with less magic the more dungeon-crawl heavy-combat style of play becomes a lot harder, but a more roleplaying oriented game is less affected by game mechanics changes.
Healing: Do you want PC's to hurt a lot more after fights, and be less able to go through lots of fights. With less magical healing this becomes a big concern. If you want lower magic but not a more lethal game, you might want to add Class Defense Bonuses, and nonmagical healing (like the Surgery feat from d20 Modern) should be available and encouraged.
Monsters: If you're toning down the magic level, double-check the monsters you are using. Damage Reduction Magic, or worse, Epic, becomes a lot more of a big deal. SR isn't as much of a hindrance, but if the monster generally requires lots of magic to kill (or if it has abilities that generally require magic to counter) it should be considered a significantly higher CR.
Classes: I'd suggest using a nonmagical variant of Paladin and Ranger to start, removing spells from the Assassin class (give them a bonus feat at every level they would get a new level of spells). Perhaps limit Divine and Arcane magic to one base class each (Cleric and Wizard, Druid and Sorcerer, it's your call). No Clerics means even less healing though. Bard (if it exists at all) could just be a PrC.
In some low magic games I run I have a meta-rule about party composition: one spellcaster in the party, that's it. Helps keep magic rare (magic just doesn't feel that rare when half the party is spellcasters, even though very few NPC's are and they practically never run across MI's). The Party actually went with a Bard for it's one spellcaster (Healing Magic, party buffs, and lots of utility magic), and just had that.
If you want really low magic, get rid of all main spellcasting classes. Spellcasting could be only available by Prestige Class, or you could have some feats that have to be taken at 1st level that give cantrip/orisons (like the Divine and Arcane Heritage feats from d20 Modern), and Incantations from Unearthed Arcana as your only PC-available magic.
Also, the style of play becomes more important, with less magic the more dungeon-crawl heavy-combat style of play becomes a lot harder, but a more roleplaying oriented game is less affected by game mechanics changes.
Afrodyte
Explorer
Belegbeth said:
I'm inclined to agree with you here. One of the things that I like about d20 is the malleability of the system. It's easy to nip and tuck to your heart's content because the basic mechanic remains the same.
Just out of curiosity, which spells did you eliminate? I know that teleport, time stop, and wish is at the top of many people's lists, but I'd be interested to see what you've done.
I think it'd be quite easy to do. The only thing you'd have to tweak is weapon proficiencies, which seems easy enough.
A'koss
Explorer
Ahh, it warms my heart to see some of the effort people are willing to put into a good low magic campaign...
I am in the middle of putting together a low magic system that touches upon nearly every facet of the game. However, it very much designed for our campaign and not really from the standpoint of something that might have broader appeal.
There is just too much to really get into it but I will touch upon some of the design and key thoughts we had going into this.
1. There are now 4 core classes - The Warrior, the Rogue, the Talist Magi (wizard) and an, as yet unnammed, Druid class. They are designed to be flexible enough to accomodate a lot of different themes. Prestige classes do exist, but they are campaign specific.
2. Magic: I've removed or reworked many of the spells to accomodate the setting. Spellcasters have sacrificed some power for greater combat ability and flexibility (spell points). Talists are more akin to fighter-wizards and many of their offensive spells have the option of augmenting their melee weapons with a similar power (eg. Burning Hands... or... Burning Spear?). And on that note, most offensive magic requires an attack roll on the spellcaster's part to hit their target or to be the most effective (eg. a fireball must be hurled at an individual to be the most effective as the blast radius is at a reduced power). Get's the player's more involved in combat.
3. Save or Die/Nerf: Any spell or one-hit wonder that could end a battle on a single roll has been altered. Big fights are designed to last longer, which is good because resurrection is very difficult indeed. "Death" spells usually inflict damage. There is also a new rule in our LM game called Resolve which reflect the sum of a character's willpower and spirit. All Will Save spells now inflict "Resolve Point" damage, rather than just an effect that just works/doesn't work. Each spells batters down a character's will (usually save for half) until, like damage, they run out and then whatever effect brought your RP down to 0 takes effect. Resolve handles a lot of other things in the game as well - "Flashy", intimidating Magic, Magic Item creation, Fear and corruption-style effects, Intimidation (Skill), Torture, Energy Drain (which drains RPs and HPs rather than levels), victory and story based awards over diffcult odds replenishes it just as defeat and retreat depletes it, etc, and so on.
4. Game Balance: We took the opportunity to really hammer the rules to accomodate higher level play better. We all love high level gaming, but the 3e style of play at these levels was just not the cinematic style we we're looking for. A lot of the disparities between the classes has been compressed. Magic healing is a lot more rare (most sap your Resolve or convert damage to subdual), but natural healing has improved significantly - especially with Reserve Points (UA). Point buy stats (though high) help as well as fleshing out more mundane weapons and armor.
5. Magic Items: No mortal can craft a permanent item, though the remnants from Ragnarok are still waiting to be found. We try to stress each items uniqueness, most have several functions that all tie into a certain theme or somehow relating to it's history or owner. Fun stuff.
6. Misc: Oh, let's see... everyone has a single BAB value. If you want to make multiple attacks you take a -4 penalty (cumulative) that applies to each additional attack. eg. 1 attack at +12, 2 attacks at +8 (each), 3 attacks at +4 (each), etc. to a min of +0 BAB. Class based AC bonuses, Armor that can convert real damage to subdual, revamped skills for LM gaming... yup, no stone left unturned...
Cheers!
A'koss.
I am in the middle of putting together a low magic system that touches upon nearly every facet of the game. However, it very much designed for our campaign and not really from the standpoint of something that might have broader appeal.
There is just too much to really get into it but I will touch upon some of the design and key thoughts we had going into this.
1. There are now 4 core classes - The Warrior, the Rogue, the Talist Magi (wizard) and an, as yet unnammed, Druid class. They are designed to be flexible enough to accomodate a lot of different themes. Prestige classes do exist, but they are campaign specific.
2. Magic: I've removed or reworked many of the spells to accomodate the setting. Spellcasters have sacrificed some power for greater combat ability and flexibility (spell points). Talists are more akin to fighter-wizards and many of their offensive spells have the option of augmenting their melee weapons with a similar power (eg. Burning Hands... or... Burning Spear?). And on that note, most offensive magic requires an attack roll on the spellcaster's part to hit their target or to be the most effective (eg. a fireball must be hurled at an individual to be the most effective as the blast radius is at a reduced power). Get's the player's more involved in combat.
3. Save or Die/Nerf: Any spell or one-hit wonder that could end a battle on a single roll has been altered. Big fights are designed to last longer, which is good because resurrection is very difficult indeed. "Death" spells usually inflict damage. There is also a new rule in our LM game called Resolve which reflect the sum of a character's willpower and spirit. All Will Save spells now inflict "Resolve Point" damage, rather than just an effect that just works/doesn't work. Each spells batters down a character's will (usually save for half) until, like damage, they run out and then whatever effect brought your RP down to 0 takes effect. Resolve handles a lot of other things in the game as well - "Flashy", intimidating Magic, Magic Item creation, Fear and corruption-style effects, Intimidation (Skill), Torture, Energy Drain (which drains RPs and HPs rather than levels), victory and story based awards over diffcult odds replenishes it just as defeat and retreat depletes it, etc, and so on.
4. Game Balance: We took the opportunity to really hammer the rules to accomodate higher level play better. We all love high level gaming, but the 3e style of play at these levels was just not the cinematic style we we're looking for. A lot of the disparities between the classes has been compressed. Magic healing is a lot more rare (most sap your Resolve or convert damage to subdual), but natural healing has improved significantly - especially with Reserve Points (UA). Point buy stats (though high) help as well as fleshing out more mundane weapons and armor.
5. Magic Items: No mortal can craft a permanent item, though the remnants from Ragnarok are still waiting to be found. We try to stress each items uniqueness, most have several functions that all tie into a certain theme or somehow relating to it's history or owner. Fun stuff.
6. Misc: Oh, let's see... everyone has a single BAB value. If you want to make multiple attacks you take a -4 penalty (cumulative) that applies to each additional attack. eg. 1 attack at +12, 2 attacks at +8 (each), 3 attacks at +4 (each), etc. to a min of +0 BAB. Class based AC bonuses, Armor that can convert real damage to subdual, revamped skills for LM gaming... yup, no stone left unturned...
Cheers!
A'koss.
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