D&D General Alternate "Ability Scores"

[Shadow Over Mystara]

Ability scores do influence personality and behavior. Not necessarily in a direct way and not always in the same way but they do have an effect. Someone who is strong but not particularly bright will likely approach problems differently than someone who is intelligent but weak. It's one of many things that affect personality.

Besides, getting rid of intelligence isn't going to change anything.

True, although the inverse can make for some interesting roleplaying. The strong character who isn't bright, but still tries forcing himself to make the most of his mind to solve problems that way rather than just resorting to sheer strength. The weak but bright character who nevertheless tries to solve problems with his fists because he has a short fuse, knowing full well the odds are against him.

Mechanically it doesn't make sense to play against your strengths, but human beings are messy and complicated. Although when swords are drawn and the stakes are high, a lot of that might go out the window!

While I think ability scores are a wretched mechanic, I also think they are the sacredest of cows. Specifically:

• The names (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) are never going to change.
• The numeric scale centered on 10.5 is never going to change.
• The method of calculating bonuses (subtract 10, divide by 2, round down) is probably never going to change.

I could see them transitioning to something like 9-12:+0, 13-15:+1, 16-18:+2. Then they could shift the weight away from ability scores to class, skills, and proficiency bonus.

I think the elegant math of calculating 3e-5e modifiers makes it more tempting to get rid of the 3-18 scale, while also putting very desirable bonuses well within reach, further reinforcing ability scores.

However, this leaves a fair bit of space to tinker. One of the most important changes IMO would be to reduce the "cascading" nature of ability scores, where a change to an ability score ripples out across a zillion other numbers. This leads to a variety of problems. It makes the game harder for new players to learn; it forces players to choose between concept and mechanical effectiveness; it complicates balance and class design.

I have already noticed WotC leaning more on proficiency bonus and less on stat mods--that's a good trend and I hope they broaden it.

Agreed. Maybe ability scores could reflect untrained ability. A medium-to-high-level fighter would be stronger than a high Strength wizard, a medium-to-high-level wizard would be more knowledgeable than a high Intelligence fighter. When making a roll, you could add your ability score bonus OR all your other bonuses, whichever is higher.

 

[Oofta]

True, although the inverse can make for some interesting roleplaying. The strong character who isn't bright, but still tries forcing himself to make the most of his mind to solve problems that way rather than just resorting to sheer strength. The weak but bright character who nevertheless tries to solve problems with his fists because he has a short fuse, knowing full well the odds are against him.

Mechanically it doesn't make sense to play against your strengths, but human beings are messy and complicated. Although when swords are drawn and the stakes are high, a lot of that might go out the window!

Absolutely. Which is why ability scores (or alignment or race or class or background) are just one piece of the picture and all which can pale in comparison to the player's vision. I've known people who thought they were very intelligent but were not, people who thought they were charismatic and were not along with the inverse.

 

[Winterthorn]

And willpower. Except when Charisma is willpower.

It's a mess.

Agreed! That has bothered me for a long time. When I started playing D&D in the 1980s, I also was toying with Traveller. That experience informed me right away there were different ways to define a character's abilities. Having subsquently also played GURPS, and a vareity of other game systems, e.g. Fantasy Hero, I became unsatisfied by the six stats of D&D, but willing to work with them as the whole game was more interesting than some of its parts.
I think the ability scores in D&D need more precise definitions, and probably could use some renaming.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Abilities scores are onew of the sacred cows, and lots of 3PPs are used to this list. Even RPG videogames with stats characters files usually use a list of attributes very close.

The softest way to test an alternate list of abilities scores would be as option in a Arcana Unearthed sourcebook, or a no-D&D game, maybe a videogame, with its own variant of d20 system. The goal should a list easy to understoond and allowing easy adaptations of monsters and creatures from other RPG with a different system.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Abilities scores are onew of the sacred cows, and lots of 3PPs are used to this list. Even RPG videogames with stats characters files usually use a list of attributes very close.

The softest way to test an alternate list of abilities scores would be as option in a Arcana Unearthed sourcebook, or a no-D&D game, maybe a videogame, with its own variant of d20 system. The goal should a list easy to understoond and allowing easy adaptations of monsters and creatures from other RPG with a different system.

Doesn't Fallout do this?

(sort of, since it's based on GURPS and not DnD)

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Fallout, at least the videogames, uses S.P.E.C.I.A.L.

SPECIAL

SPECIAL is the ruleset that powers all Fallout games. The name "SPECIAL" is an acronym standing for the primary statistics in the system: Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility and Luck. Characters in SPECIAL are defined through: Primary statistics Derived statistics...

fallout.fandom.com

In the past I suggested to add at least two abilities scores more: acuity (astuteness/creativity + perception/naturalistic inteligence) and spirit(luck/fate/karma/faith/divine grace + courage/willpower), but then wisdow would mean psicological madurity/intrapersonal inteliggence/good sense/sanity/self-control. This should allow games with more investigation (noir detective against Lovecraftian cutls) or social interactions (palace intrigues in the fae court).

 

[Lanefan]

Note: I am going to assume you mean why is it an issue if ability scores are thought of as defining personality traits. If I am wrong, please clarify.

To ut it briefly: the only thing that should define how a player portrays their character is that player's desire. Not Alignment (just get rid of it already) and not ability scores.

Er...wrong.

Alignment (which the player chooses), ability scores (which the player has a lot of choice over unless one is going straight 3d6 in order), bonds, flaws, traits, ideals (all of which the player chooses), background (which the player largely chooses) - all of these choices and options are there to help inform the player* what makes the character tick.

I don't think it's too much to ask that a character be role-played in reflection of and with regard to the choices made by the player during its generation.

* - and the DM, and in some cases the other players.

The bug lunk barbarian can absolutely have a high Intelligence, because what intelligence really is is an aptitude with recalling information and seeing connections in 5E. That is all the mechanical heft it has outside of class abilities.

Mechanical heft is by no means all of it; and largely irrelevant here. What we're talking about is, for lack of a better term, "fluff heft"; and I say the various factors I list just above all have (or should have) significant fluff heft that the player needs to consider when characterizing and "personality-izing" the PC.

Ignoring that fluff heft is just as much bad-faith play as would be ignoring the mechanical heft.

On top of it, bundling those things is counterintuitive to me at least: the people I know who are best at recalling information they read ten years ago are not necessarily the same people that solve a mystery.

I've always seen Intelligence as measuring a character's capability of quick thought, memorization, on-the-fly deduction, and creativity; while Wisdom covers deeper reasoning and the ability to foresee consequences. Thus, someone who is really good at recalling ten-year-old info might be just as intelligent as someone who can solve mysteries in a snap; but the person who can do both would count as more intelligent than either.

 

[Lanefan]

True, although the inverse can make for some interesting roleplaying. The strong character who isn't bright, but still tries forcing himself to make the most of his mind to solve problems that way rather than just resorting to sheer strength. The weak but bright character who nevertheless tries to solve problems with his fists because he has a short fuse, knowing full well the odds are against him.

Agreed.

That said, to mechanically reflect this role-play I-as-DM would kind of expect the player to assign that character's ASIs accordingly, as in the fiction that's where the character is specifically trying to improve itself. Some players would do this. Many wouldn't.

I could see them transitioning to something like 9-12:+0, 13-15:+1, 16-18:+2. Then they could shift the weight away from ability scores to class, skills, and proficiency bonus.

I think the elegant math of calculating 3e-5e modifiers makes it more tempting to get rid of the 3-18 scale, while also putting very desirable bonuses well within reach, further reinforcing ability scores.

I'd rather reinforce ability scores by moving away from the modifier model and toward a roll-under system for many things. In 5e this is very do-able due to the stats being hard capped at 20, and it serves to make every stat point worth something rather than just the even numbers.

 

[Horwath]

I have suggested some times to add more abilities scores.

D&D 5E - Sacred Cows: Added new abilities scores.

Sometimes I thought about how to create an universal d20 for all genres and the most of 3PPs wanted to used, and easy to adapt other systems. After a idea storm I have chosen to add two new abilities scores: acuity and spirit. - Acuity(Acu) would be perception and astuteness, very important in...

www.enworld.org

The abilities scores is one of the sacred cows of D&D. Is possible this change in d20 system? Maybe, but not with D&D but other game, for example d20 Modern 2.0, Gamma World, or a videogame.

Why to add more? Because if the goal is to created an ultimate d20 system where all the previous RPGs could be adapted, then we need something for games more focused into investigation and social interactions, for example noir detective against Lovecraftian cults or palace intrigues in the fae court.

Storytelling System has got nine attributes/abilities scores.

And storytelling system has about 5 abilities too many.

lot's of abilities, lots of chance to dump one or more of them without second thought.

4 abilities are enough for D&D

Strength: current strength and constitution mechanics, Fortitude saves, Skills: Athletics,
Dexterity: same as now, Reflex saves, Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery
Willpower: your magic ability(DCs, attack, damage), Will saves
Cunning: your broad intelligence, potential for learning, bonus skills, bonus languages, bonus tools. Skills: all skills and tools not mentioned before.

So, how to describe your personality this way?

Simple: you have proficiency Deception and Persuasion? You're a fast talker.
Proficiency&expertise in History and Nature? Bookish academic
proficiency in Perception, Insight, Investigation? Highly cautious and aware.
etc...

 

[Deset Gled]

In the past I suggested to add at least two abilities scores more: ...

4 abilities are enough for D&D...

I've seen lot of cases around here (not just these two examples) where a bunch of people swear more ability scores are needed. I've also seen a ton of other groups scream that we need less. The combination helps convince me that the 6 we have is just fine. The standard array may be not absolutely perfect in every way, but it's a reasonable method to model characters, tell a story, and play a game.