Alternate ability system

[Tessarael]

Hi folks,

I've been thinking about an alternate ability system. My aim is to make
all of the abilities roughly equal, rather than say Strength being the
best for a warrior character. I want to discourage Charisma (Charm in
this proposal) from being a dump stat. A +2 increase in an attribute
should be worth between about one to two feats for a character. My
intention is for this system to be fully compatible with existing D20
materials: it should not be necessary to change existing NPCs or
monsters. It does help in PC character creation by reducing how dominant
some abilities are.

I also want to simplify the abilities used by the magic system - there
does not seem to be a good reason why different Arcane and Divine casters
have different primary casting abilities. This means that multiclassing
between spellcasting classes will have good ability synergy, but as you
are losing spell levels, it will seldom be worth it.

Let me know what you think, thanks!

I judge the importance of the proposed abilities to classes as follows:

Barbarian, Fighter:
- primary abilities: Muscle, Precision, Constitution
- secondary abilities: Perception, Agility, Knowledge, Charm
- dump abilities: Will

Bard:
- primary abilities: Will, Knowledge, Charm
- secondary abilities: Muscle, Precision, Perception, Agility, Constitution

Cleric, Druid:
- primary abilities: Will, Knowledge
- secondary abilities: Muscle, Precision, Agility, Constitution, Charm
- dump abilities: Perception

Monk:
- primary abilities: Muscle, Precision, Agility, Constitution
- secondary abilities: Perception, Knowledge, Charm
- dump abilities: Will

Paladin:
- primary abilities: Muscle, Precision, Constitution
- secondary abilities: Perception, Agility, Knowledge, Will, Charm

Ranger:
- primary abilities: Muscle, Perception, Agility, Constitution
- secondary abilities: Precision, Knowledge, Will, Charm

Rogue:
- primary abilities: Perception, Agility
- secondary abilities: Muscle, Precision, Constitution, Knowledge, Charm
- dump abilities: Will

Sorcerer, Wizard:
- primary abilities: Will, Knowledge
- secondary abilities: Muscle, Precision, Agility, Constitution, Charm
- dump abilities: Perception

As there are now 8 abilities, and classes generally require one more
ability than previously, it may be helpful to increase how many points
characters get to buy abilities. For example, another 6 points would
suffice for a character to buy an extra ability of 14.


Modifications to attributes
===========================
MUSCLE (was Strength):

Muscle measures your character's sheer physical power. Muscle is important
for Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Paladins and Rangers as it increases the
damage they do in combat. It can also be quite useful for Clerics, Druids,
and Rogues when they wade into combat. You apply your muscle modifier to:

- damage rolls with melee and thrown weapons
- Muscle checks (for breaking down doors and the like)
- carrying capacity
- Skills: Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Swim


PRECISION (was Strength):

Precision measures how accurate you are in combat and how deft you are
with your hands. For example, a gemcutter should be deft. Precision is
important for Barbarians, Fighters, Monks and Paladins as it increases how
often they will hit in combat. It can also be quite useful for Clerics,
Druids, and Rogues when they wade into combat. You apply your precision
modifier to:

- attack rolls with melee attacks
- Skills: Balance, Craft, Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Use Rope


PERCEPTION (was Dexterity):

Perception measures how observant you are of your surroundings, and
hand-eye coordination. Perception is important for Rangers and Rogues, as
it increases their accuracy with ranged attacks and helps their skills.
You apply your perception modifier to:

- attacks rolls with ranged attacks
- Skills: Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival


AGILITY (was Dexterity):

Agility measures how nimble you are on your feet, and your reflexes. It
is most important for Monks, Rangers and Rogues, and anyone else who does
not wear heavy armor and engages in non-magical combat. You apply your
agility modifier to:

- Armor Class
- Reflex saving throws
- Skills: Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Perform (Dance, instruments),
Ride, Sleight of Hand


CONSTITUTION (unchanged except for removing Concentration):

Constitution represents your character's health and stamina. It increases
your hit points, and is most important for melee-oriented classes such as
Barbarians, Fighters, Monks and Paladins.

- each roll of a Hit Die
- Fortitude saving throws


WILL (was Wisdom/spellcasting attribute):

Will represents your determination and abundance of magical power. It is
important for all spellcasters, particularly: Bards, Clerics, Druids,
Paladins, Sorcerers, and Wizards. You apply your Will modifier to:

- bonus spells
- Will savings throws
- Skills: Concentration, Profession, Use Magic Device
- Turning checks for Clerics and Paladins


KNOWLEDGE (was Intelligence/spellcasting attribute):

Knowledge represents how much you know and how well you understand magic.
It is important for all spellcasters, particularly: Bards, Clerics, Druids,
Sorcerers, and Wizards. Knowledge is also of some use to everyone, as it
gives you more skill points and more languages. You apply your Knowledge
modifier to:

- adds to saving throw difficulty class for spells and spell-like abilities
- 4 skill points per bonus/penalty point from Knowledge
- number of languages known
- Skills: Appraise, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge skills, Spellcraft

The maximum spell level you can cast is Knowledge - 10.


CHARM (was Charisma):

Charm represents how persuasive you are, and in turn how lucky you are
(the gods seldom favor those who are uncharismatic). Leading a charmed
life is of benefit to everyone, but Charm is most important for Bards.
You apply your Charm modifier to:

- Fortitude, Reflex and Will saving throws
- Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal,
Perform (Act, Comedy, Oratory)


Modifications to classes
========================
Monks get a flat AC bonus with level - it is no longer dependent on Wisdom.
For example, an extra +2 AC at first level, and an extra +1 AC every 5
levels thereafter. In general, no prestige class or base class should give
an attack, damage, AC or saving throw bonus based on an attribute - any
bonuses should be level-dependent bonuses. For example, the Duelist
prestige class might get +1 AC per 2 levels. Paladins might get +1 to saves
at first level, and an additional +1 save every 5 levels thereafter.

All spellcasters use Knowledge to modify saving throw DCs and the maximum
level of spell they can cast. All spellcasters use Will for bonus spells.


Modifications to feats
======================
Weapon Finesse is removed. Precision is used to modify the attack roll of
all melee attacks.


Modifications to races
======================
Dwarf: +2 Constitution, -2 Charm
Elf: +2 Agility, -2 Constitution
Gnome: +2 Constitution, -2 Muscle
Half-Orc: +2 Muscle, +2 Precision, -2 Knowledge, -2 Charm
Halfling: +2 Agility, -2 Muscle

 

[Nifft]

You might want to take a look at the GURPS-inspired "SPECIAL" system -- Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, Luck. Their Perception is related to your Precision, and Luck plays a big role in critical hits, from what little I can remember.

-- N

 

[Tonguez]

In the homebrew system (which was d20) I was developing before The D20 sstem came out the Ability Scores were

Power - Damage
Agility - Defense Skill (AC)
Coordination - Weapon Skill (BAb)
Perception - Senses (Spot, Listen)
Intelligence
Presence - combo of Wisdom and Charisma essentially

I figured Fortitude (called Stamina) as Power + Agility
and Will (Sanity) as Presence + Intelligence

 

[Dark Mistress]

We toyed around with something similiar, the big diffrence was we mostly left the names alone.

Str - like old str but no bonus to hit and some skills removed
Con - no real change
Intel - no real change
Chr - no real change
Dex - (hand eye coordiantion) bonus to hit and most dex skills
Quickness - reflex save, defense bonus and some of the dex skills
Wis - (like dex was broken into two stats, mostly mental willpower)
Wits -(though we was never happy with the name) much like your perception

Beyond making character creation a little more complicated, it didn't slow down game play and in many way improved it. Now those that wanted to play the quick fighter could and would be able to hold his own against the strong fighters(he hits more often but does less per hit). The big thing is you need to print out all the changes and exactly how it is changed so the players know in advance and not make old assumptions. A new skill list is a must for example.

 

[Tessarael]

My primary criteria are, in order of importance:
- compatibility with existing 3.5E D&D material
- balancing attributes vs. one another
- giving Charisma non-spellcasting/non-skill based mechanics for it to not be a dump stat
- making +2 to an ability worth 1 to 2 feats, to possibly allow spending a feat to get +1 or +2 to an ability

So I'm curious if people think the abilities are balanced versus each other, or if I could improve things further. (For example, I think I need to also disallow or change Power Attack, as that makes Precision better than Muscle.)

Any thoughts on the splitting of spell casting attribute into two: bonus spells; max. spell level/saving throw DC? And what is the impact of giving everyone the same spellcasting attribute?

Dark Mistress, sounds like the differences were: I reduced the bonus from INT to skills; I gave CHA a bonus to all saves. Game play should be no more complicated that normal, it's just intended to improve character creation and advancement. Skill lists - yes, definitely ... I think INT may still have too many skills (due to the Knowledge skills) the way I've done things.

Tonguez, sounds like you guys did something somewhat similar - particular splitting Strength into separate damage and attack bonus. Fortitude gave bonus HP and Fortitude save modifier in your home brew?

Nifft, I had a look around for SPECIAL. Looks like one RPG computer game used it. Is there anywhere online with details of it? I googled, but failed to find anything. I definitely don't want Luck/Charm modifying critical hits - that was already a problem in D&D 3E, and wouldn't work well as Charm advanced - I don't want people getting something equivalent to Keen multiple times ... though I guess you could make it give a damage bonus on a critical hit. Still, I want Charm to be useful to everyone, not just the non-spellcasters.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Tessarael]

Example abilities in standard 3.5E and this system

My 19th level Roguish character has base abilities of:
STR 16, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 11, CHA 10
He is Elvish, making DEX 17 and CON 10.
He put his 4 abilitites points into DEX, so DEX 21.

He has two ability items: Ioun Stone Dex +2, Belt of Dwarvenkind. These results in DEX 23 and CON 12.

The point cost of his abilities is 10+8+4+6+3+2=33.

Under the new system, to make him almost identical in raw abilities:

Muscle 16, Precision 16, Perception 15, Agility 15, Constitution 12, Will 11, Knowledge 14, Charm 10.

The point cost of these abilities is 10+10+8+8+4+6+3+2=51. So it takes an extra 18 points to build the character, but he could drop Perception down to say 10, which would reduce point cost to 45 (an extra 12 points).

He is Elvish, making Agility 17, Constitution 10. He is a melee guy, so he doesn't care about Perception, but the lack of Weapon Finesse reduces his attack bonus from Precision (vs. basing it on DEX). There's some multiple-ability-dependency issues here. Before DEX was his primary ability, now Agility and Precision are primary.

I'd probably split those +4 ability modifiers from levels between Agility and Precision. Due to multiple ability dependence, ability modifiers should probably be more often in this system: +1/3 levels or +1/2 levels.

The +2 CON from the Belt is still just as good. The Ioun Stone of DEX probably becomes an Ioun Stone of Agility, and again he misses out on the bonus to Precision and hence to attack. This makes some ability bonus items not as good, but maybe they are more balanced vs. the weaker abilities (e.g. STR bonus item was probably much better than CON bonus item before for a melee Fighter).