Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

[Dausuul]

I hear that a lot, but I kind of have to wonder - the singular "they" has been part of the English language since the late 15th century. How many hundreds of years does it need to be in use before it isn't considered against the rules?

Well, nobody said grammar Nazis were rational.

I agree with you in principle, but in practice I have a very hard time forcing myself to adopt the singular "they," and I know a lot of people would think less of my writing if I did. Sad but true. The question then becomes, is this particular linguistic hill worth dying on?

 

[Umbran]

Well, nobody said grammar Nazis were rational.

Fair enough

I agree with you in principle, but in practice I have a very hard time forcing myself to adopt the singular "they," and I know a lot of people would think less of my writing if I did. Sad but true. The question then becomes, is this particular linguistic hill worth dying on?

I think the argument of, "I just don't like it, it doesn't sound good to me," is far more solid than the grammatical one. Unassailable, even, as there's no accounting (or grammatical rule) for taste.

 

[Dausuul]

I think the argument of, "I just don't like it, it doesn't sound good to me," is far more solid than the grammatical one. Unassailable, even, as there's no accounting (or grammatical rule) for taste.

Yeah, well, the problem is that I can account for my taste; it comes from years and years of reading books produced by a publishing system in which the singular "they" is unacceptable. Writers are what we read. If the writers who shaped my writing habits had used it regularly, I expect I'd have no problem with it.

In other words, I don't like it because it's not the done thing, which is a lousy reason. Setting aside my personal preferences, singular "they" is the obvious solution to the generic pronoun problem, and if I felt more strongly about it (the "hill worth dying on" question), I'd train myself to use and like singular "they," and crusade to make it acceptable.

I don't feel that strongly about it, though, so I'm going with the path of not-quite-least-but-definitely-pretty-low resistance by using universal "she" instead.

 

[Nifft]

I think the argument of, "I just don't like it, it doesn't sound good to me," is far more solid than the grammatical one. Unassailable, even, as there's no accounting (or grammatical rule) for taste.

My dislike for the singular "they" is purely functional: allowing it increases ambiguity, and there's no corresponding benefit.

For example:
* "When a Wizard uses Bigby's Insulting Finger on a group of orcs, they are Dazed." Who is Dazed?

This is the same reason why I like mixed gender pronouns:
- "When Alice uses Bigby's Slapfight on Bob, he takes 5 damage and she is Slowed."

... and now I think we may be off topic.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sunseeker]

My dislike for the singular "they" is purely functional: allowing it increases ambiguity, and there's no corresponding benefit.

For example:
* "When a Wizard uses Bigby's Insulting Finger on a group of orcs, they are Dazed." Who is Dazed?

This is the same reason why I like mixed gender pronouns:
- "When Alice uses Bigby's Slapfight on Bob, he takes 5 damage and she is Slowed."

... and now I think we may be off topic.

Cheers, -- N

Wouldn't a more appropriately worded description be:
* "When a Wizard uses Bigby's Insulting Finger on a group of orcs, the orcs are Dazed."

vs

- "When Alice uses Bigby's Slapfight on Bob, Bob takes 5 damage and Alice is Slowed."
((there is afterall, no guarantee that Alice is a girl, and Bob is a guy))
or
- "When Alice uses Bigby's Slapfight on Bob, the target takes 5 damage and the caster is Slowed."

 

[Umbran]

Yeah, well, the problem is that I can account for my taste; it comes from years and years of reading books produced by a publishing system in which the singular "they" is unacceptable.

Ah, here's where I get to be archaic in my usage.

I meant the phrase more like the Latin root, "De gustibus non est disputandum," meaning, "there is no disputing about tastes". Accounting crept in not to allude to finding the origin of taste, but accounting as in "mathematical system to analyze" - so, there's no objective measure for tastes.

Okay, enough with the linguistic threadjacking.

 

[Nifft]

Wouldn't a more appropriately worded description be:
* "When a Wizard uses Bigby's Insulting Finger on a group of orcs, the orcs are Dazed."

No. Pronouns are good. We need them. This short passage is an example. Find a longer passage and remove all the pronouns, if you need to convince yourself of their value.

- "When Alice uses Bigby's Slapfight on Bob, Bob takes 5 damage and Alice is Slowed."

Again, pronouns are good. Throwing them away is bad.

((there is afterall, no guarantee that Alice is a girl, and Bob is a guy))

Enough English speakers will indeed understand Alice as female and Bob as male. Enough of them that you have no point.

- "When Alice uses Bigby's Slapfight on Bob, the target takes 5 damage and the caster is Slowed."

Yet again, this is an example passage. It is simple for a reason, and that reason is easy digestion.

Sure, we could re-work all English sentences to exclude pronouns, but that would be bad. We could re-work all English sentences to use roles instead of pronouns, but that would be difficult (and there's no guarantee it would not suck worse).

You want to shovel all this crap into English, just to gain a singular 'they'? Why, what did singular 'they' ever do for you?

, -- N

 

[nedjer]

and at face value

your opinion is all I'm after. Reading this far I'd rather hand out copies of Gamers, Sexy and . . . whatever the book was to everyone at the table than leave a women's mag on show

 

[Aus_Snow]

your opinion is all I'm after. Reading this far I'd rather hand out copies of Gamers, Sexy and . . . whatever the book was to everyone at the table than leave a women's mag on show

Um. Reading "this far" through the thread? My post in particular? Just curious is all. Either way, not sure I quite understand what women's mags have to do with anything. Also, not sure what book(s) you're referring to. If you could spell it out for me, it would be appreciated. I mean, I think I get the gist, but. . . maybe not.

 

[Umbran]

Sure, we could re-work all English sentences to exclude pronouns, but that would be bad. We could re-work all English sentences to use roles instead of pronouns, but that would be difficult (and there's no guarantee it would not suck worse).

Well, are we worried about all sentences, or gaming book examples?

For the latter, it occurs to me that gaming books bear more resemblance to technical writing than most other forms of prose. And in technical writing, you do generally want to remove ambiguity, and be as specific as possible. I would expect authors of such to minimize use of pronouns (with or without gender) for that reason.