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D&D 5E Am I no longer WoTC's target audience?

hawkeyefan

Legend
The same is largely true of game design - whether or not it has "advanced" is very much in the eye of the beholder: what's an advance to one person might very well be a step backwards to another.

An analogy might be modern safety features in cars - auto-braking, lane departure alerts, etc. - that by some are seen as great advancements but by others are seen as impediments to the joy of driving.

So yes, we can argue - not so much about whether game design technology has advanced, but about whether those "advances" individually and-or collectively are of any use.

But wouldn’t the existence of options alone be a sign that game design has advanced?

I mean, we’re talking about a hobby that’s relatively young in the grand scheme. If there was one way to do things in 1974, and several ways to do things now, I’d look at that as an advancement.

Ultimately, which option may be best is up to the individual. But having more than one choice? That seems better than only having one.
 

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pemerton

Legend
It would be really odd to assume that rpg designers have made no progress over the decades, other than creating new games. There have been refinements and experiments, some of which have been tossed, some kept.

The original D&D rules are rough, and even AD&D has rules mostly ignored, not because of preference, but because they are cludgy or unworkable.

Game designers have a much fuller tool box, and generally a better feel for what will work smoothly. Game design requires a knowledge of math and statistics. Grasping the best formulas for that tricky balance between fun and a workable ruleset requires practice and knowledge of what came before.

Theses ideas can shift around depending on what's in vogue, and of course it's not a smooth straight line upwards with every newly published game being better than earlier ones. Generally, however, games have improved. Designers are learning and building from previous knowledge, widening the field, and polishing techniques. This is what we do, whether it's art, technology, or RPGs.
For what I'm talking about, whether art has advanced or not is not material. I can stick to discussing system-as-technology, and I'm fine, thanks.
I'm rather sympathetic to @GreyLord's comparison of RPG design to art rather than technology.

There's no doubt that contemporary artists have a "much fuller tool box" (to use Arilyn's phrase). But that doesn't mean that it is beyond argument that art is getting better. Probably my single favourite piece of visual art is Michelangelo's Pieta. I'm not sort of critic, and so don't have a very rich or sophisticated vocabulary for trying to explain why. But one thing that is striking about it, for me - especially in comparison to many of the other statues in St Peter's - is how "modern" it looks. Eg for me it felt much closer to Rodin in the way it conveys emotion, than to many of the other early modern pieces it is surrounded by.

Perhaps my single favourite piece of music is Wagner's Parsifal. Wagner had to invent new technology (instruments,methods of orchestral orginsation, etc) to make his music possible, but it's not the technology on its own that explains the quality of his work.

In RPG design there's no doubt that knowledge of a wider range of possible techniques - which are developed over time - can help. But it's not enough, and not all those techniques ultimately turn out to be satisfying. Just to give on example which obviously will be controversial - nearly all aesthetic judgement is - but is true for me: the RPG technique of GM authored plotline combined with downplaying the role of resolution mechanics to produce an experience of the players working their way through the GM's fiction began to be popularised in the 80s and perhaps reached its peak in the 90s. But for me, the development and refinement of that particular technique did not improve RPGing.

The impact of this technique on individual games did not improve them either - eg in the first (1977) version of Classic Traveller the description of the Streetwise skill seems to me to clearly contemplate the fiction being authored in response to player action declarations for their PCs (ie a successful Streetwise check can result in the GM narrating the existence of such-and-such a useful contact); whereas in the revised (1981) version the skill description has been altered to reflect the emerging "consensus" that the GM authors all the fiction and that the best a skill check can do is give the player's access to fiction that exists - which means a Streetwise check will always fail (even if numerically successful) if the GM has already decided that no contact of the relevant sort exists.

I don't think that first version of Traveller is perfect, and in our campaign we have supplemented it in various ways (new skills from some of the later books, and correspondingly revised and slightly more generous PC generation tables), but I think it is better in some ways than the 1981 version and far superior to MegaTraveller in nearly every respect. (I'm not across the contemporary Mongoose versions but to the extent that they adopt uniform target numbers for skill checks I feel they may have lost some of the strengths of the original.) Whether through luck or genius, it design fastened on many aspects of satisfying RPG play - good spreads of probability, structuring task resolution so as (in most cases) to achieve conflict resolution, recognising the interplay of participant input and mechanics in establishing the fiction - that many later games do not have. (Eg I would say Classic Traveller c 1977 is much better on out-of-combat conflict resolution than D&D 5e c 2020).

Of course it goes almost without saying that the editing and presentation of Classic Traveller could be improved - but even in that sense the has not been a steady upward trajectory for RPGs. While Gygax's AD&D books, especially his DMG, are a bit wonky in their editing/compilation, Gygax's section in his PHB on Successful Adventures makes for much clearer "how to play" text than many other later RPGs (certainly clearer than the corresponding text for 4e D&D despite the latter's 30 year advantage).

Another great RPG, which bucked the 80s/90s trend and is incredibly light yet powerful both in PC build and action resolution is Greg Stafford's Prince Valiant (1989, I think). I'm not sure what more contemporary system compares to it for a combination of simplicity, clarity and power.

None of this is to deny that some new techniques are good ones, nor that improvements in understanding make it easier to get good design through deliberation rather than luck. But I agree with GreyLord that a comparison to purely utilitarian technology like the automotive functioning of a car in not really apt. Modern sculptors have many more tools available to them than Michelangelo did, but can they create something like the Pieta?
 

pemerton

Legend
None of the WotC editions of D&D would have seemed too out of place or too wildly innovative had they been published as fantasy heartbreakers in the 90s.
This isn't true. 4e's skill challenges would have been very innovative in the 90s - the first system I know of to use that sort of close scene resolution is Maelstrom Storytelling (Hubris Games) from 1997 and it became more widely known when used by Robin Laws for HeroWars in 1999/.2000 (? I think - around then anyway).

When picked up by 4e about a decade later it was no longer wildly innovative, but there are features of the skill challenge design which I think are distinctively strong compared to some similar resolution systems - eg to borrow a phrase (I'm pretty sure) from Vincent Baker it has IIEE (intent, initiation, execution, effect) "with teeth" - that is to say, whereas some closed scene resolution allows actions to be resolved without establishing what is actually happening in the fiction (Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits can have this issue, and Vincent Baker has written about it mostly with reference to dissatisfaction with his own game In A Wicked Age) a skill challenge (unless run completely degenerately) can't have this issue because Player 2 can't declare an action until s/he knows what the situation is his/her PC is engaging with, and that can't happen until the GM narrates the consequence of Player 1's declared action, and the GM can't do that until s/he knows what Player 1's PC actually did.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The crunchy parts of a game, and the maths that come up endlessly on forums like this one, might lead one in the direction of a technological metaphor, but I would agree with @pemerton - art is the operative term. Art is appropriate because all the crunch is being filtered through, added to, and combined by the players at the table to, hopefully, produce some sort of positive aesthetic experience. With the human subject and their interior experience of the game as the focus, art is very much the field with the tool box, history and vocabulary to speak to the results.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
Each edition from 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e added more and more complexity and sometimes smoothed out the clunky bits.

I'm not trying to HA-HA you and say your opinion is WRONG, but I can't agree with you on the idea that complexity progressed as editions moved forward. I would rank them as such using the following definition of Complex.

Complexity: The difficulty an average player would encounter in applying 80% or more of the intended and non-optional rules of the game. This can be influenced both by the amount of rules as well as the design and organization of those rules.

Least Complex <---5e--4e--Basic/Moldvay--3.x--2e--1e---> Most Complex

I rate 5e the least complex because it has a combination of low amounts of rules, easily understood rules, and well organized rules.

I rate 1e the most complex because it had medium amounts of rules (less than 3.X), hard to understand rules (you needed to refer to charts frequently, sometimes roll over and sometimes roll under a target, etc.), and poorly organized rules. This chart is a nightmare...
EX1.jpg

3.X was less "complex" to me because even though it had MANY more rules in the system than 1e they mostly stuck to the D20+mod to beat DN design method rather than random dice depending on the check.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I'm not trying to HA-HA you and say your opinion is WRONG, but I can't agree with you on the idea that complexity progressed as editions moved forward. I would rank them as such using the following definition of Complex.

Complexity: The difficulty an average player would encounter in applying 80% or more of the intended and non-optional rules of the game. This can be influenced both by the amount of rules as well as the design and organization of those rules.

Least Complex <---5e--4e--Basic/Moldvay--3.x--2e--1e---> Most Complex

I rate 5e the least complex because it has a combination of low amounts of rules, easily understood rules, and well organized rules.

I rate 1e the most complex because it had medium amounts of rules (less than 3.X), hard to understand rules (you needed to refer to charts frequently, sometimes roll over and sometimes roll under a target, etc.), and poorly organized rules. This chart is a nightmare...
View attachment 117952
3.X was less "complex" to me because even though it had MANY more rules in the system than 1e they mostly stuck to the D20+mod to beat DN design method rather than random dice depending on the check.

It was more complex as they added more and more to the game.

4E kinda went sideways but you still need up with a complex game almost unplayable for the average person.

Most people played 3.X casually so it wasn't to complex. It could be if you are an advanced player.

PHB 4E would be very complex for new players or if you weren't familiar with Book of 9 Swords.
 
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pemerton

Legend
a software sim can run numbers for you, but it won't necessarily tell you anything about OP, which is what happens when clever monkeys start putting things together in actual play, where synergy is the issue, rather than a strictly mathematical analysis of a single rule, or set of rules.
This is certainly true for list + combo based games like D&D. One development in the suite of RPG technology has been to identify other approaches to PC building. One of the powerful alternatives has been to move away from a wargame-style tight coupling of particular fiction with particular mechanical elements, to a more "free descriptor"-style approach that holds the mechanics roughly constant over a wide range of character types but overlays different descriptions which then establish the differences in the ways that players of those characters are able to use them to engage the fiction.

A concrete example would be HeroQuest revised. Prince Valiant is also pretty close. I think even a system like RQ comes close-ish because of its uniform "roll under" resolution based on a single number on the PC sheet with neither that number nor the die roll being highly subject to modification based on other elements introduced by picking form other lists.

Which sort of approach is "better" of course is a matter of taste! And it's also possible to combine them (I think 4e D&D comes close to being a list-based "free descriptor" system) - whether that's best or worst of both worlds is of course a further matter of taste.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
None of this is to deny that some new techniques are good ones, nor that improvements in understanding make it easier to get good design through deliberation rather than luck. But I agree that a comparison to purely utilitarian technology like the automotive functioning of a car in not really apt.
But I do so like the car analogy. It works on so many levels. Automakers can't control what reckless people do with their products, for instance. It's not advisable to use them when you're heavily medicated. There's been tremendous resistance to the most straightforward and effective safety measures. The first one, the Ford Model T was the most popular ever (sold the most units in total) from 1914, until it was surpassed by the VW Beetle in 1972. Many other old examples of the technology are revered like religious icons.
Etc, etc....

Modern sculptors have many more tools available to them than Michelangelo did, but can they create something like the Pieta?
Y'can probably 3D print as many of 'em as you want. I know, re-producing and creating aren't exactly the same thing.


This isn't true. 4e's skill challenges would have been very innovative in the 90s - the first system I know of to use that sort of close scene resolution is Maelstrom Storytelling (Hubris Games) from 1997 and it became more widely known when used by Robin Laws for HeroWars in 1999/.2000 … When picked up by 4e about a decade later it was no longer wildly innovative
Hmmm...

well, first, to move the goal-post across the field, let me assert that if the only version of 4e skill challenges we consider was the original one - mechanically borked as it was - it'd've fit right in with other well-meaning, inspired, had one neat idea that didn't work, fantasy heartbreakers of the 90s. ;)

Seriously, though, I am having trouble calling to mind any similar mechanic or 'play procedure' from the 80s, so you may have a point there. ...but I also have a nagging feeling I'm forgetting something...
...whatever it was, most likely a specific scenario rather than a general sub-system.

a skill challenge (unless run completely degenerately) can't have this issue because Player 2 can't declare an action until s/he knows what the situation is his/her PC is engaging with, and that can't happen until the GM narrates the consequence of Player 1's declared action, and the GM can't do that until s/he knows what Player 1's PC actually did.
I do believe I've seen some degenerate skill challenges, then. ;(
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I'm rather sympathetic to @GreyLord's comparison of RPG design to art rather than technology.

Look, I'm a physicist. I can discuss light as wave, or as a particle, independently, and I know when to stop talking about it as one, and start talking about it as another.

The fact that games can be considered art does not prevent them from also being a technology. None of the rest of the verbiage you guys are throwing at this changes that.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Look, I'm a physicist. I can discuss light as wave, or as a particle, independently, and I know when to stop talking about it as one, and start talking about it as another.

The fact that games can be considered art does not prevent them from also being a technology. None of the rest of the verbiage you guys are throwing at this changes that.

I think you are correct when it comes to rule design (one can empirically measure the effectiveness of rules through things like balance, time management, and other metrics).

When it comes to things like worldbuilding and adventure storylines however... this is really far more aligned with art than technology.
 

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