D&D 5E Am I no longer WoTC's target audience?

[jayoungr]

On the last point - Elros was not physically indistinguishable from elves, but rather chose to be human.

We don't actually know anything about how he looked physically, as there is no description of his appearance from what I can remember without my books handy. But what slight evidence we have suggests he was, in fact, indistinguishable from an elf (there is no mention of Arwen undergoing a physical change when she makes her choice). And he didn't choose to be human--he choose to accept the Doom of Men, which is a related but different thing.

I'm also not sure about Earendil - as a half-elf was he more evlish or human?

There's no description of his physical appearance either, as far as I can remember.

In any event, it's true that D&D's implementation of half-elves is different from JRRT's but that's true of most elements.

Thank you--that is my point!

Nevertheless the derivation from JRRT is pretty transparent.

I'm not disputing the derivation and never have done so in this thread. I'm saying that the result, after D&D has implemented the things it derived from Tolkien, is quite different in flavor from the source. Which you just agreed with above, so I'm not sure why we're "arguing."

And there is nothing stopping a particular table treating half-elves as rare, or the ranger class as very distinctive - much as a GH campaign would be expected to treat open-hand monks.

Agreed, which is why I said above that you can get a more Tolkien feel from D&D if the DM chooses to steer in that direction. But the DM has to make a conscious effort to do so. You can get an even more Tolkien feel if you change some of the rules, which is the approach Adventures in Middle Earth took.

That said, D&D is much better suited to playing JRRT-type fantasy than much mythology.

I think that depends heavily on just what you mean when you say "JRRT-type fantasy." I would say "vanilla" D&D lends itself more easily to something tonally like Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, or the dungeon-crawly parts of Conan. You could also do The Hobbit pretty well with "vanilla" D&D, but much of LOTR and virtually all of the Silmarillion (which is basically mythology) would require a deliberate tonal shift on the part of the DM.

(That said, I do firmly believe that D&D is more versatile than many give it credit for, and that you can use it for many types of adventures. I'm not one of those "D&D is only good for beating things up and taking their stuff" types.)

 

[Oofta]

While I think it's a bit silly to discuss whether or not elves have pointy ears (the answer is of course they do, just not those silly dog ears), elves were depicted with pointy ears were since the 19th century.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

In Spain in children's birthday there is the custom of tradition of pulling the ears, one pull for each year, because the long ears are symbol of wisdow and long live.... (like elves?).

LotR is the supreme masterwork of the epic fantasy, but it isn't the best setting for a TTRPG.

Half-ogres are possible in Zakhara/al-Quadim as no-evil characters, but as PC race needs an own style and not only a half-orc clone.

* Birthright is the perfect setting for fans of Games of Thrones, but the key wasn't about conspirancies, dragons or killing white walkers but more about how nobles really acted behind the scenes, agreeing marriages, alliances and other things, or how to show us the true differences between real leaders and toxic bosses, or how a potential hero can become a new tyrant, or a supposed loser not only survies, but he can prove to be a true leader. (and a leader not always has to be the boss).

 

[pemerton]

I would say "vanilla" D&D lends itself more easily to something tonally like Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, or the dungeon-crawly parts of Conan.

I don't think D&D by default is very good for REH Conan, except 4e done a certain way and maybe 5e drifted closer to 4e than it's default. Because with those exceptions D&D - especially low-ish level D&D - encourages caution and also looting, whereas the essence of REH Conan is risk, acting on whims, and sacrificing personal gain to doing the right thing. (Off the top of my head I can only think of one REH Conan story where Conan actually keeps the treasure - Shadow in Zamboula.)

 

[Anoth]

I'm only 54, and I learned to program on punch cards. FORTRAN for the win (?)

Isn’t that how everyone writes a program?

 

[jayoungr]

I don't think D&D by default is very good for REH Conan, except 4e done a certain way and maybe 5e drifted closer to 4e than it's default. Because with those exceptions D&D - especially low-ish level D&D - encourages caution and also looting, whereas the essence of REH Conan is risk, acting on whims, and sacrificing personal gain to doing the right thing. (Off the top of my head I can only think of one REH Conan story where Conan actually keeps the treasure - Shadow in Zamboula.)

Honestly, the only Conan I've actually read is Red Nails. I was just thinking of the bit where Conan and Valeria are navigating the ruined labyrinth of jade; that scene has the atmosphere of a D&D dungeon. If that seems like a superficial resemblance to you, well, that's how the Tolkien comparisons sound to me.

 

[Anoth]

On the one hand, I think you're correct, D&D has had a massive influence on popular culture and fantasy in general, that's undeniably true. On the other hand, there are many fantasy authors who have had a similarly large influence on fantasy fiction in particular. Many of those authors, especially from the 70's and 80's own a bigger debt to Tolkien than they do to D&D. In turn, those authors have had a huge influence on authors writing today (as does Tolkien). The lineage of Tolkien is pretty clear, both through his influence on D&D and also on the genre of fantasy fiction, which, arguably, doesn't exists in its current form without Lord of the Rings.

I find it mildly humorous how quick some people are to jump to Gygax's defense. No one's trying to downplay the influence of Gygax or D&D here.

It really sounds to me like they are trying to downplay gygax’s influence. Sorry, that just what it looks like to me.

 

[Anoth]

And then we realize that "originally" is now just about "half a century ago", and that leaning on that may not be the strongest position to take. 50 year old things tend to be... arthritic

I need a symbol for a middle finger to properly respond to this.

 

[pemerton]

From pp 92-93 of my one volume edition of LotR:

[A] sound like mingled song and laughter . . . They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rise of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet.​

But when Elros choose humanity over elf-ness, I don't think this would (still?) have been true of him. He would have been more like Aragorn - eg p 424:

Aragorn threw back his cloak . . . Gimli and Legolas . . . had not seen him in this mood before. He seemed to have grown in stature while Eomer had shrunk: and in his living face they caught a brief vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone.​

I think these signs of heritage are probably more significant than pointy elves. Frodo and Sam didn't need to see the elves, let alone their ears (travelling through a woods at night without lights) to know who they were.

 

[Anoth]

That, and even if they by rule couldn't it's a rule that doesn't stand up to the reality of pretty much any setting: any race that has its own pantheon (as Dwarves do) is by extension almost certainly going to have Clerics of some sort.

Dwarf Druids, on the other hand, make no sense at all.

Elf Druid’s make no sense. Sidhe worship and druids were competing religions that did Not like each other. Druidism is a human religion that did not like the fair folk.