Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel?

[Desdichado]

I have never liked the ideas of planes in the first place. All the metaphysics seem always seemed a tad to weird for my tastes. Moreover, I really think the idea of plane hopping really disrupts from the faux-medieval atmosphere. Characters going from plane to plane really seems more along the lines of something to be found in a superhero comic book, not a game based around medieval myths and legends. (Of course, if that's fine if you base your games around superhero comics.)

Since when has D&D really cultivated a faux-medieval atmosphere? Even in the very beginning it was more Swords and Sorcery rather than Medieval with a bit of magic.

In fact, I purposefully try to back away from the pseudo-Medieval outlook, because it simply doesn't work with D&D very well.

 

[Aaron L]

Actually, in 1e, clerics got 1st and 2nd level spells through the power of their faith alone.

I always loved that, and in casual reading I just found out that it's still that way in 3E ("oficially", that is)

From Deities & Demigods p.29: "In fact, it is possible for clerics or other divine spellcasters to prepare and cast divine spells strictly through their own devotion to some cause and without the intercession of any specific deity. It is the training, skill, and dedication of the spellcaster that makes preparing and casting a divine spell possible, and this is why a deity needs levels in a divine spellcasting class to cast most divine spells."


I like higly detailed planar geographies, and have extensive maps of my cosmology. I have many, many planes, Inner Astral, Outer Astral, Deep Astral, many Limbos, Heavens, Hells, Planes of Ascension, Border Realms, Shard Realms (from a shattered previous Prime) and more, all kinds of crazy stuff. As Psion, I look to Elric for my planar ideas, and love detailing them. Heck, I have characters involved in an Astral psychic war against an ancient demigod at the moment.

I also take some stuff from White Wolfs Mage, in that as you move through (Prime Material) outer space, you move into other planar realms as well. That way each different Prime world can have it's own cosmology. All of the planes exist, you just have to move to a different area of the PMP to gain access to them. (Beetlejuice type stuff) Earth's Hell is different from Saturn's Hell: they are both the same plane, but accessed differently and on a different "wavelength".

 

[Ashwyn]

I don't use the great wheel, but I loooove the Planes.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I like the idea of planes. But I've grown to dislike the idea of Great Wheel.
It lacks some feeling, some spark, some sense of wonder or just some uniqueness of belonning to some world not FR.

I liked first edition Manual of Planes. It was not that well written, and there was little actual useful data (only few passing minor mentions of plane's natural inhabitants and the like). It still was kind of idea mine for me, and helped me to realized possiblities of planar travel. I liked the idea that planes were deadly and not so welcomming to adventurers who hadn't come there to enjoy their afterlife or from kind invitation.

Then came Planescape. I disliked it instantly. There where some cool ideas yes, but it ruined whole concept of Concordant Opposition (yes stupid name), and re-placed it with Sigil. City of planes where 1st level adventurers can roam to be confused with stupid local word-twistings (the cant) and enjoy joining some white-wolf esque factions of this and that. You see, those kind of faction/order/tradition/clan/etc. ideas were awfully popular in those years of gaming, and they were awfully over-used, since I owned and played so many game systems. And I couldn't get over the language (which was cool too at those time, every white wolf game or Immortal for that manner did it, their own special language), and if they had just kept it within those in-character descriptions, I might have played it more.

3rd ed Book of Planes was cool, but futher reading reveiled it to be a bit too tidy to my tastes. They had removed some dangerous effects of planes, and no rules for spells working differently or anything. Planes of that book aren't that dangerous and unpredictable as they used to be. And there are some little things there I can't just feel to be like that. I consider it useful source material though, it's neat book after all.

Current planes I am using consist of sort of Elemental planes, that one can just walk to from certain special place from around world, or beings or those places can do the same, though it's rare for them wanting to remain.

Then there is the Beyond there all kind of demons come from. They are just referred as demons, though their nature vary. Any being of world can't be (normally) dragged there, so no-one knows what really is there, if anything.

Then there is astral/spirit world, but passing from there from spirit world of noermal world to spirit world of elemental planes and vice versa is again matter of finding entrance point. Magic can help creating those, but it's kind of radical, so more it's more common to use magic to transport/guide person to right kind of area.

Gods exist, but they don't have their own planes, and they don't offer afterlife.
They incarnate at will, but aren't really that agressive. They grant powers, and not just clerical to those that choose to follow them.

I used to use Wheel cosmology with my Greyhawk games, but it was mix of 1st edition and my own ideas. I am bored of it. Too bad it is new thing for my favourite dm. Because, though I like his adventures, his planar things just bore me mostly.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Characters going from plane to plane really seems more along the lines of something to be found in a superhero comic book, not a game based around medieval myths and legends. (Of course, if that's fine if you base your games around superhero comics.)

Gilgamesh traveling to the underworld? Odysseus's trip to Hades? Arthur going to Avalan?

Are these mythic enough?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Gilgamesh traveling to the underworld? Odysseus's trip to Hades? Arthur going to Avalan?

Are these mythic enough?

Yes, each of then had to do something mythic and epic to get there. They didn't turn to their wizard buddy and say, "Hey cast Plane Shift, will ya?"

Personally, I have nothing against the great wheel, but the DM has to change a LOT of the basic assumptions of high level spell casting if he wants moving from plane to plane to be at all epic or even interesting.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Yes, each of them had to do something mythic and epic to get there. They didn't turn to their wizard buddy and say, "Hey cast Plane Shift, will ya?"

Personally, I have nothing against the great wheel, but the DM has to change a LOT of the basic assumptions of high level spell casting if he wants moving from plane to plane to be at all epic or even interesting.

Exactly... If the planes don't come across as being mystical parts of a setting (i.e., it's just another place to stomp around), then this is a problem more related to the ease of getting there rather than the places themselves (of course, Planescape assumes this ease of travel else the point of the setting becomes moot, but Planescape is also an entity unto itself, not a role-model for every cosmology that can be imagined).

I'm a much bigger fan of campaign elements like the "world tree", the "river styx" and the "bifrost bridge" than I am of rules elements like "twiggle fingers and a door opens".

 

[Olive]

I'm a much bigger fan of campaign elements like the "world tree", the "river styx" and the "bifrost bridge" than I am of rules elements like "twiggle fingers and a door opens".

Except that the rules specifically provide you with the option of making plane shift a tricky thing. It requires a focus for each plane. Make those focii hard to coem by. Make a player travel to that plane in order to take material from it to make the tuning fork. That way you can use obscure portals, journies from the plane of fire through the astral to Elysium or anything else you like.

Or, just ditch plane shift and gate and be done with it.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Or, just ditch plane shift and gate and be done with it.

That's basically what I'm saying, yeah.

 

[woodelf]

So there's no spell-casting clerics in your world, then?

Just because someone casts spells, and claims that they can do so because a god gave them the ability, doesn't mean that they're being truthful and correct. You don't need gods to have spell-casting clerics, you don't even need gods to have clerics who cast "divine" spells.