Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel?

[Andrew D. Gable]

I don't like the Wheel. I don't use much in the way of alignment outside of old-skool Law and Chaos. Outside of the world, there's Xanadu (heaven based on Dante's version), Arjidan (hell not based on Dante's version...much), Limbo (a combo Astral/Ethereal/Shadow). Then you get to the Veil of Paroketh, and beyond that wall is the Netherwells (Far Realm).

Demons, devils, demodands, and daemons are all thrown together in Arjidan.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Speaking of MoP, am I the only one sort of irritated by how hard it now is to move between alternate worlds in the Prime Material, with the strong implication that the entire Great Wheel is centered around a single Prime Material world? (scoff, scoff)

While things eventually got VERY silly in 2E, I like that there was a way of doing the really old school way of planar travel, from fiction: Moving between Earth and fantasy realms. It'd be hard to model, say, the Chronicles of Narnia in default 3.5 D&D now, whereas there would be any number of ways to move between Earth and Narnia in 2E, which is true to the novels.

I'm thinking of just grafting Earth onto the Prime Material as another plane like the Plane of Shadow that only links to a few Inner Planes. Fiends, or whatever, that make it to Earth, have to cut through another Inner Plane to get there.

(Of course, I also toss in Faerie, Time, the Far Realm and the Mirror Realm, just because they're so freaking cool. And if I ever have an Asian-themed area in my campaigns, you better believe that you'll be able to reach the Elemental Plane of Wood from there.)

 

[D+1]

So, who else does not like the planes?

I also have a moderate dislike of the Great Wheel cosmology for a couple of reasons. I dislike the association of one plane per alignment; I see no reason that each plane or even each religion needs a unique plane for it's own heaven/hell. I dislike the association of a plane to each of the four elements. I think the four elements works perfectly for D&D, just not as individual planes of reality in addition to being ELEMENTS of the single core reality of the prime material plane. Ditto for positive and negative material. I also see little reason for a DM to saddle a campaign with dozens of different plane if the campaign isn't going to deal with planes in any extensive manner. That is, the Great Wheel may be spiffy for a setting like Planescape, but for the average scratch campaign, or even basic settings like FR or Greyhawk it just seems like such pointless overkill; effort that's wasted on planes that just won't ever factor into your standard D&D game in any fashion even over the entire lifespan of a campaign.
My next campaign I intend to drastically reduce the number of planes, as well as alter their uses and purposes. So far I have the prime, something like a general paradise, the ethereal, and a Netherworld dimension of demons of all kinds seperated from the prime by a plane of shadow. The plane of shadow may also isolate the odd pocket dimension or two, and if the campaign leans that direction, Ravenloft. Maybe a plane of dreams as well that commingles some aspects of the astral. But I don't have need of anything more than that and honestly NEVER have.

 

[herald]

I know, that's why I said "but". I was differentiating between the main two WotC models.

Sorry, should have read through better.

 

[Henry]

"Divine Blessing for here, or to go?"
"To go, please. And gimme extra ketchup!"

I think you meant something else, but I can't figure out what... gods come out to play if you ignore them too much?

-- N

Sorry, to clarify, if the clerics of these faux-deities start convincing enough worshippers to turn away from their patron gods and start worshipping theirs, then faux-god starts (A) getting a conduit from beyond to start granting his worshippers stuff, or (B) actually starts coming into a limited existance.

In fact, one of my players brought worship of Odin into the campaign world this way. Odin is currently a demigod, and if we ever play it again, it will remain to see whether he gets enough to make Odin more than that.

 

[Desdichado]

I also see little reason for a DM to saddle a campaign with dozens of different plane if the campaign isn't going to deal with planes in any extensive manner. That is, the Great Wheel may be spiffy for a setting like Planescape, but for the average scratch campaign, or even basic settings like FR or Greyhawk it just seems like such pointless overkill; effort that's wasted on planes that just won't ever factor into your standard D&D game in any fashion even over the entire lifespan of a campaign.

Yep, I'm on the side of "less is more" also. Some kinda heavenly place, some kind of hellish place, and some transitive planes of various stripes are all I really need for most campaign settings. If even that. My latest only really has one other plane [than the "Prime Material"].

For that matter, I dislike the term planes. It's a D&Dism pure and simple.

 

[shadow]

I have never liked the ideas of planes in the first place. All the metaphysics seem always seemed a tad to weird for my tastes. Moreover, I really think the idea of plane hopping really disrupts from the faux-medieval atmosphere. Characters going from plane to plane really seems more along the lines of something to be found in a superhero comic book, not a game based around medieval myths and legends. (Of course, if that's fine if you base your games around superhero comics.)

In my homebrew that I'm working on I have a very simple cosmology. Since my game features a quasi-Catholic Church as one of the main religions, I have just three planes - The heavens, hell, and the material plane. Much simpler and doesn't require players to learn elabortate cosmology.

 

[Nifft]

Sorry, to clarify, if the clerics of these faux-deities start convincing enough worshippers to turn away from their patron gods and start worshipping theirs, then faux-god starts (A) getting a conduit from beyond to start granting his worshippers stuff, or (B) actually starts coming into a limited existance.

Very Pratchett (esp. Small Gods).

Do you have specific rules on how many worshippers you need, and what counts as a worshipper?

-- N

 

[Henry]

Very Pratchett (esp. Small Gods).

Do you have specific rules on how many worshippers you need, and what counts as a worshipper?

-- N

Nope, only what's in my head. I base it on what they do rather than number-crunching. Standing in a roadside shrine ain't gonna cut it, because EVERYONE's handing out miracles, and that fact that you can't raise the dead is a sure-fire giveaway as to just how powerful your god is; so they have to get creative in convincing people. Most people just don't convert, because they don't think about it a lot, but someone who stands out as a paragon is more likely to get converts to his god than someone who isn't. And so far in world history, NO one has tried to elevate themselves to godhood (only one called the Wytch-King has been that brazen yet, and he failed about 800 years ago). About 10 years ago, two PC's from a high-level campaign succeeded in attaining demi-godhood as a reward for a titanic favor, but their popularity faded fast (they didn't put much effort into worshippers), and they lost their power.

 

[Woas]

I like the idea of different planes. Its an easy way to explain where planar beings come from. Usually in my homebrew I only use elemental planes, a "good" plane, a "evil plane", a "death" plane and a "life" plane.