Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel?

[Nifft]

I also don't like the wheel. It's too... tidy. Theology is not a science IMC, it's an argument.

Theories include:

- When you die, your soul falls into the Ethereal plane. If you are forgotten -- if no memories of you anchor your soul -- you slip into the Deep Ethereal, and finally into Hades, where your soul becomes a larva.

- When you die, your soul is judged by Selene, the Moon Goddess. Raelor (the Sun God) advocates your entry into Heaven, while Asmodeus argues the case for your interment in Hell. Every now and again demons raid the courtroom, stealing whom they may.

- When you die, you are re-incarnated into the world, unless you foolishly made pacts with a god or a fiend, who are basically alike: they both wish for your soul to fuel their personal power.

- When you die, Cernunos (Horned Master of the Wild Hunt) splits your soul into its four basic parts: Valor, Honor, Horror and Desapir. These four parts are given form and weaponry, and battle until only one remains. The strongest quarter of your soul determines how and where you will spend eternity, so spend your life feeding your honor and valor.

-- N

 

[Derulbaskul]

I don't like the Great Wheel either, but I really like the FR cosmology. For Dawnforge I will eventually be using something like FR's but based on the Great Tree.

 

[Deadguy]

I'll add my name to the list of those who neither like nor use the Great Wheel cosmology. I find it too contrived and flat. The Planes become less a mythological inspiration and instead are just 'other worlds' for high level PCs to visit. I admit I have never been comfortable with the concept of Planes in D&D. Whilst I like some aspects, notably the Planes as a source of energy for magical effects in the world (the elemental and energy planes particularly), I find that their introduction seems to cheapen a DM's investment in his game world. By that I mean that as soon as the PCs can they seem to go plane-hopping, abandoning the carefully crafted world that they've adventured in up to then. To put it another way, as DM I've created a world with an interesting back-story, but that's left behind when the PCs hop off into the wide blue yonder. Can you imagine how, say, Midnight would feel, if the PCs get to just wander off and abandon its dark atmosphere when they got to high enough level?

That's why I've always had sef-contained and restrictive comsologies in all the D&D games I've DM'd for the last 15 years. The focus has always been on the Prime Material, with the other 'planes' being cosmological backstory. The only game I would consider running with a wider context would be a Planescape type structure, where planar-hoppong was integral to the campaign.

Oh, trying not to hijack the thread but:

I have a cosmology that is similar in some respects to the one portrayed in Nobilis.

As I have never played that game, what's the cosmology?

 

[Li Shenron]

Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel? It seems like almost everybody uses it, even in their hombrew worlds. While I do not like the idea of planes, besides the PMP at all. The planes just seem so dull, and political. I might have an alternate world in my homebrew world, but it is not a plane. So, who else does not like the planes?

So what is it that you don't like exactly?

Is it the fact itself that other planes exist or rather the fact that characters can actually go and visit them?
Or you don't like the way the planes are implemented (which on the average is very similar to the material plane)?
Or you don't like having an ordered structure of the universe?

You say that they are dull and political... maybe you don't like the typical plots used in planar adventures?

 

[DragonLancer]

I actually like the Great Wheel cosmology, although it may stem partly from the fact that it is part of the original D&D game.

The impression I get from posters on various boards is that they do not use the planes as the alien vista's that they are, but more as just another world or place to visit when you get high level. The planes are the realms of gods, spirits, demons and angels, and should be shown in a light other than as just another place (As Planescape did with it).

I have experimented with designing new layouts and ideas, but I always come back to the Great Wheel as being the best idea and layout.

 

[Ackem]

I don't use it nor like it.

I think my primary complaint with the Great Wheel is that it makes the afterlife feel like a theme park. I don't want players walking around heaven, I don't want players even knowing for sure there is a heaven, I don't want players knowing for certain there's an afterlife at all. The more hazy and mysterious the universe, the better. So, in my homebrew, the overall cosmology, the existence of "gods", and what happens after death (if anything) is all ambigious. There are alternate planes but there's no neat classifications known for them, there might be no reason nor ryhme to their existance at all.

My secondary complaint is that the Outer Planes, as written, feel rather dry and dull. Way too much FR-esque "Everything And The Kitchen Sink" without regard for being tight, consistent, and compelling. There's no vision, too much mediocre derivation of other work, and the Outer Planes end up feeling less exciting and interesting to me then various alternate Material Planes I can think up.

 

[herald]

I don't like the Great Wheel either, but I really like the FR cosmology. For Dawnforge I will eventually be using something like FR's but based on the Great Tree.

FR doesn't use the great wheel, it uses the "Tree".

 

[Shemeska]

My secondary complaint is that the Outer Planes, as written, feel rather dry and dull. Way too much FR-esque "Everything And The Kitchen Sink" without regard for being tight, consistent, and compelling. There's no vision, too much mediocre derivation of other work, and the Outer Planes end up feeling less exciting and interesting to me then various alternate Material Planes I can think up.

*boggle* Wow, that's a different take than I've heard before. Check out Planescape and the sheer level of detail and elaboration it gave to the infinite planes. The 3e MotP barely holds a candle to it (they did a good job though considering it's just one book and they had to consolidate so much info).

Heck most of the people I know of who don't like Planescape typically are of the opinion that it was too complex, had too much information to keep track of. Partly for some of that the 3e Great Wheel removed the para and quasi elemental planes, and the border regions of them all to reduce the complexity of the inner planes. They also altered the roles of the Astral and Ethereal, making the Astral a catchall plane and the Ethereal a useless shadow of its former self.

I adore the Great Wheel cosmology and the elaboration it was given in Planescape. It's a pity that 3e hasn't risen to that same level of detail, elaboration and frankly, scope of vision.

But I'm biased in this of course.

 

[S'mon]

I am pretty sick of the Great Wheel, it's way too rigid and compartmentalised. I remember my dad was very annoyed at Nirvana being the absolute-Law plane; changing that to Mechanus makes sense IMO.

I do like plane-hopping, although it hasn't been part of my current campaign; I'm a big fan of Moorcock's Eternal Champion books, I like the Law vs Chaos conflict.

 

[S'mon]

Re the Inner Planes - I preferred previous edition's more complex approach, with Elemental & Energy planes shading into each other, so you get the Plane of Dust, Plane of Minerals, Para-Elemental Plane of Ice, and such. To me, those are fun and inspiring.

What I don't like is the Great Wheel denoting say Asgard/Gladsheim as the CN(G) plane, or the Happy Hunting Grounds as the NG(C) plane, and so on. It may suit a Gygaxian need to jam everything into a single rigid alignment-based classification system, but it does a horrible job of evoking actual mythology or any sense of wonder.