Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel?

[Desdichado]

I love using the planes (glances across at avatar and screen name) but I've always disliked the "great wheel" and I've never, ever used it. Back when I played D&D+Greyhawk, prior to 1e, we had already got a cosmology of the planes - basically the "winding road" cosmology from the Manual of the Planes, and we didn't want to ditch that for the "plane per alignment" idea which seemed really strange to us; it was more like a way of attempting to jam loads of earth religions heavens and hells together, quite uncalled for.

I don't doubt that it could be used as a suitable setting for some campaigns, but the whole basis felt really blah to me from the start.

(n.b. I still think the manual of the planes is the best supplement I've *ever* bought for any version of D&D. So full of ideas!)

Bingo! That sums up my feelings quite well.

 

[Davelozzi]

I don't hate the great wheel, but I don't really like it either. Generally, the planes haven't been much of an issue in my campaigns as they stay pretty grounded on the prime. But I do like to have some other planes - a heaven, a hell, and some sort of shadow realm (etheral plane, shadow plane, whatever).

In my current campaign, I use lots of demons and devils but don't differentiate between the two. Likewise, one player has a psion who uses astral constructs, so I guess the existence of the astral plane has been implied, although it wouldn't be too hard to justify another source of the astral matter. A few characters have started to take Knowledge (planar) but so far it's functioned more as Knowledge (outsiders) as its only been used to check info about planar foes.

At any rate, I'd have to say that this has been a great thread with lots of good ideas.

 

[Nightfall]

I don't.

Same here. Just because it SEEMS paradoxically doesn't mean it's stupid or lame. I mean life itself is pretty damn paradoxial overall. We all believe we are good when in fact we are both good and evil, often at the same time.

 

[3catcircus]

Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel? It seems like almost everybody uses it, even in their hombrew worlds. While I do not like the idea of planes, besides the PMP at all. The planes just seem so dull, and political. I might have an alternate world in my homebrew world, but it is not a plane. So, who else does not like the planes?

Well - I've got a decent solution IMC for the Great Wheel vs. Forgotten Realms vs. *any* other cosmology.

First - cosmology is a bad term to use since cosmology is "the study of the physical universe considered as a totality of phenomena in time and space" and "is the astrophysical study of the history, structure, and constituent dynamics of the universe" and "a specific theory or model of this structure and these dynamics." (dictionary.com)

So - really - cosmology only applies to a *specific* plane at a time, given, for example, the idea that the Prime Material is a series of crystal spheres (i.e. galaxies) - such that Krynnspace, Torilspace and Greyspace also contain their own worlds and other planets. Likewise, Celestia, The Abyss, etc. all have their own cosmology.

What I've done to come up with a workable solution to the Great Wheel, and the "FR Cosmology" is apply a little science (fiction). Basically - each "plane," being infinite in and of itself, is nothing more than an individual universe in a sea of the multiverse, and is defined by n-dimensions (with n>4, such that the universe can be explained by F(Universe) = G(x,y,z,t,...n)). In other words - each plane, in addition to length, width, heighth and time dimensions, has other dimensions that define it. This allows for the idea of gates or portals that connect the different planes, time travel, etc. Since many planes have multiple layers, I've defined each layer as an additional dimension - so that the Celestia (Seven Heavens) has 11 dimensions, Bytopia has 6 dimensions, etc. Now, granted, this is pseudo-science - but it is what the sages of my campaign have to work with.

Each layer of each plane is also infinite. An infinity of infinities (of infinities) allows for multiple pantheons sharing space without ever knowing the others exist since they are infinitely separated from each other (this is from the idea that between the numbers 1 and 2, there are an infinite amount of numbers - and each of *those* numbers can have an infinitely large amount of numbers between them. It also allows for the various powers of each pantheon residing on different planes and/or layers (Great Wheel) and being considered local to each other (FR Cosmology).

Note how the FR Cosmology's "planes" are really the same as previous edition's "realms" (from F&A, P&P, and DD) - the Demonweb Pits (Plane) in FR Cosmology was a realm in The Abyss in previous editions *and* is, in FR Cosmology, described as having connections to the plane known as The Abyss.

Basically - it all boils down to the idea that each point in an infinite space can be both local to another point *and* infinitely far away from another point - it allows for the "realms" of 1st/2nd edition to be considered as their own planes (of infinite size) that are themselves part of a large infinity.

Of course - the "layout" of the multiverse can be considered Great Wheel *and* FR Cosmology *and* an infinite number of other shapes and sizes *all at the same time* since how they appear is relative to the observer's frame of reference. This is how, to the Torilian observer, the planes look like a tree yet to someone from Oerth, they look like a wheel, each spoke connected to it's neighbor and to the center hub. This is also how I describe the idea that the Ethereal connects the Prime to the Elemental Planes while the Astral connects the Prime to the Outer Planes. Basically - the astral and ethereal allow for the "folding" of dimensions (to go from 4-d to 3-d, 3-d to 11-d, etc.)

Anyway - that's just how I approach it - it is up to each of us as a DM to choose how we want to present the planes in our own campaigns

 

[Henry]

I use them because they're neat and tidy, and most of my players are familiar with the concept.

I'm of two minds whether or not to use Sigil in my current FR game; I'm thinking of just sticking with the planar breakdown in the FRCS and using that.

But for my homebrew I constantly tinker with, I use the great wheel, and specifically exclude sigil at the center, because I want my planes to be VERY dangerous physically, with no one below, say, 10th level even THINKING about venturing there.

 

[glass]

My last campaign a s a DM died after 2 levels due to pressure of RL issues, so the planar structure never became an issue, but I wasn't planning on using the Great Wheel (although I think it would work great for a Planescape type game).

I hadn't decided what exactly I was going to do with it, but there were a few things I would want to change:

Ghosts. According to the MM, ghosts are creatures of the ethereal. If they are souls on their way to the afterlife, no wonder they can't reach it: they are going the wrong way!

As a couple of other posters have said, I don't like that you can walk around the afterlife, but I am not sure what to do about it, exactly, as I still want to have evil planes for daemons to come from.

Daemons in this case meaning the coolest critters cherry picked from the ranks of daemons, demons and devils. I never did like the distinction. I guess I am more into good vs evil than law vs chaos.


glass.

 

[Desdichado]

Daemons in this case meaning the coolest critters cherry picked from the ranks of daemons, demons and devils. I never did like the distinction. I guess I am more into good vs evil than law vs chaos.

Same here; I might even lump slaadi in there for that matter. There is a D&D term for this already though; Fiend.

 

[Shemeska]

I use them because they're neat and tidy, and most of my players are familiar with the concept.

I'm of two minds whether or not to use Sigil in my current FR game; I'm thinking of just sticking with the planar breakdown in the FRCS and using that.

But for my homebrew I constantly tinker with, I use the great wheel, and specifically exclude sigil at the center, because I want my planes to be VERY dangerous physically, with no one below, say, 10th level even THINKING about venturing there.

Sorry, I just had to comment here.

Don't use the FRCS planar 'tree', come to the dark side of the Great Wheel, get out of the hedge trimmers and lay into the FR unique planes like its summer and the hedges have grown too high.

And as far as excluding Sigil for your homebrew... you could always leave Sigil in place but allow the Sodkillers and Planarists to rise in power as factions and start scragging any prime that wanders into Sigil who can't take care of himself and gain some grudging respect from them. Racist fallen celestials teaming up with brutality happy rent'a'cops, you can't go wrong there.

I can complain but you've got your reasons here so I can't complain too heartily. *grin*

 

[Dogbrain]

Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel?

It's a work by committee and thus inappropriate for my campaign. Then again, I don't use "planes" in the D&D sense.

In my own campaign, all the competing cosmologies are equally "true" and "false". In play, it might come out to be something like in The Silly Saga of Eric the Viking.

 

[Dogbrain]

Well - I've got a decent solution IMC for the Great Wheel vs. Forgotten Realms vs. *any* other cosmology.

First - cosmology is a bad term to use since cosmology is "the study of the physical universe considered as a totality of phenomena in time and space" and "is the astrophysical study of the history, structure, and constituent dynamics of the universe" and "a specific theory or model of this structure and these dynamics." (dictionary.com)

According to the OED, cosmology also includes, and I quote:

"That branch of metaphysics which deals with the idea of the world as a totality of all phenomena in space and time."

So - really - cosmology only applies to a *specific* plane at a time

No, it does not. There is more than one definition for "cosmology", and "dictionary.com" is very far from infallible. According to the OED, cosmology also includes, and I quote:

"That branch of metaphysics which deals with the idea of the world as a totality of all phenomena in space and time."

Therefore, your entire screed is wrong.