Am I the only one who does not like the Great Wheel?

[WizarDru]

I like and use the Great Wheel, although I will probably use something different the next time out. I particularly like Sigil, as it gives me a very unique and dangerous place that can accomadate 1st level characters as equally capably as 23rd level characters.

My chief complaint with the Wheel and the planes in general is that they feel somewhat too defined, in some cases....more like foreign countries that are somewhat odd, in some cases. Some planes just don't feel different enough to my tastes.

 

[Henry]

Don't use the FRCS planar 'tree', come to the dark side of the Great Wheel, get out of the hedge trimmers and lay into the FR unique planes like its summer and the hedges have grown too high.

The thing is, I kinda like the look of it - it definitely sets the Realms apart compared to what has gone before in our games. However, since we haven't done any planar travelling yet (they're still having fun tromping around Impiltur and the Earthspur Mtns, and I've only in passing mentioned Bane's Home plane and the Plane of Shadow) I have plenty of time to decide what to do.

And as far as excluding Sigil for your homebrew... you could always leave Sigil in place but allow the Sodkillers and Planarists to rise in power as factions and start scragging any prime that wanders into Sigil who can't take care of himself and gain some grudging respect from them. Racist fallen celestials teaming up with brutality happy rent'a'cops, you can't go wrong there.

The thing is, if I want to use Sigil, and the factions, and the "planar border towns," and all the Planescape trappings, I'll probably use it whole-hog instead of altering it, because the politics of it look good when interconnected, but less so when used piecemeal.

Think of my dilemma in terms of the U.S. circa the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition - I'm torn between making it look like the western half only (only small pockets of safety, danger everywhere else from environment and threats), or making it look like the whole country (friendly territory in Missouri and points east, with the west still being hostile and the aforementioned pockets of safety) - if you catch my drift.

 

[3catcircus]

According to the OED, cosmology also includes, and I quote:

"That branch of metaphysics which deals with the idea of the world as a totality of all phenomena in space and time."




No, it does not. There is more than one definition for "cosmology", and "dictionary.com" is very far from infallible. According to the OED, cosmology also includes, and I quote:

"That branch of metaphysics which deals with the idea of the world as a totality of all phenomena in space and time."

Therefore, your entire screed is wrong.

Well - considering that the OED definition you use is pretty much identical to the one from dictionary.com, with the exception of changing the word "physics" to "metaphysics" and changing "universe" to "world" with the addition of "all" before the word phenomena, I'd say your argument that me "...entire screed is wrong" is as equally valid or invalid as you choose to make it. I *did* preface my post with the abbreviation "IMC" for "in my campaign" and ended my post with the idea that each of us can choose to treat the planes any way we see fit.

Thus - begone troll, and darken this thread no more.

 

[Psion]

I like the great ring and use it... well, extended a bit. I am running a game that will use the River of Worlds from FFG's Planes & Portals.

If I had a reason to use something different for a game world (creation myth/background, etc.), I would use it. But as it is, the great wheel is very usable, flexible, and has loads of source material, much of which I find very interesting and loaded with adventure ideas.

I've never bought into the "you should never go to the planes" mentality. To me, fantasy is about doing the fantastic, and my D&D worldview is as more inspired by the likes of Elric than modern pop-culture psuedo-Christian notions of an "unpiercable veil."

 

[diaglo]

...and my D&D worldview is as more inspired by the likes of Elric

and tales of Greek heroes travelling to the Underworld to beg for favors or loved ones.

than modern pop-culture psuedo-Christian notions of an "unpiercable veil."

this so screams hymen. pop that ...

 

[Spatula]

I think my primary complaint with the Great Wheel is that it makes the afterlife feel like a theme park. I don't want players walking around heaven, I don't want players even knowing for sure there is a heaven, I don't want players knowing for certain there's an afterlife at all. The more hazy and mysterious the universe, the better. So, in my homebrew, the overall cosmology, the existence of "gods", and what happens after death (if anything) is all ambigious.

So there's no spell-casting clerics in your world, then?

 

[Gothmog]

I don't hate the great wheel, but I don't really like it either. Generally, the planes haven't been much of an issue in my campaigns as they stay pretty grounded on the prime. But I do like to have some other planes - a heaven, a hell, and some sort of shadow realm (etheral plane, shadow plane, whatever).

In my current campaign, I use lots of demons and devils but don't differentiate between the two. Likewise, one player has a psion who uses astral constructs, so I guess the existence of the astral plane has been implied, although it wouldn't be too hard to justify another source of the astral matter. A few characters have started to take Knowledge (planar) but so far it's functioned more as Knowledge (outsiders) as its only been used to check info about planar foes.

At any rate, I'd have to say that this has been a great thread with lots of good ideas.

You summed up my feelings pretty well Davelozzi. I homebrew, and I've never been too crazy about the Great Wheel. It feels too contrived, neat, and rigid- in short, it takes all the mystery and fun out of other planes. This was only made 100 times worse with the advent of Planescape- things became so much more rigidly defined that it left a bad taste in my mouth. I tried Planescape for a while when it came out, and it definitely has the "everything and the kitchen sink" feel, which really doesn't appeal to me.

IMC, I have the Terrestrial Empyrean (the Prime basiaclly). There is also the Celestial (Heaven) and Infernal (Hell) Empyreans, as well as the Spirit World (sort of like the Ethereal, but not quite). There are also the deep realms of the Spirit World, such as the land of Faerie. In addition, ghosts and incorporeal occupy the Spirit World, and can make occasional forays into the Terrestrial Empyrean. Finally, there are a few other Realms, such as the Umbral Empyrean (which is where my PCs are stranded right now)- sort of like a dark, twisted version of the Terrestrial. Planar travel simply IS NOT possible IMC by spells cast by characters- it takes the action of an artifact, a place of power, or powerful supernatural agencies to allow it. I haven't statted out or detailed the other planes in much detail, because to do so would defeat the purpose of having other planes to me- they are places beyond mortal comprehension and cannot be fathomed by a mortal mind.

I use a lot of fiends in my game, but make no distinction between demons, devils, and daemons- they are all evil and have similar goal, just different means of doing so. Celestials are more varied, as each god has a different set of servitors who serve him, so I don't tend to use celestials from the MM. I will tell you one nice thing though- meeting a fiend, celestial, or planar being puts the fear in the PCs since they are such a big unknown. Gods simply do not ever make appearances IMC- they a re a big unknown. Humans worship gods in various fashions, but no human can commune directly with a god since they tend to be distant, and to be honest, nobody really knows what the moral and ethical outlook of a god is. Some widely regarded "good" gods have evil cults devoted to them, which do seem to receive support from the deity. It makes the world a little more relative, but I tend to like morally gray campaigns.

 

[Pants]

I quite like the Great Wheel and I use it for my current campaign. Although, I might just house rule the hell out of it for my next world. Don't know yet.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

So there's no spell-casting clerics in your world, then?

Reason #438 why the D&D cleric is problematic, conceptually: people don't tend t separate the mechanics from the flavor text.

Who says that clerics have to receive their powers from a specific deity? Even in the Player's handbook, they leave the option of receiving power from more elemental forces or ideas.

And there's no reason we can't take a step beyond that. What about simply receiving your power through Faith. Not faith in a specific god, but simply the inherent power of having Faith. Or of Virtue. Or conversely, of vile, despicable, soul-selling Evil.

There are dozens of ways to produce the mechanics of the cleric class in a world without gods hanging out on every street corner.

 

[Desdichado]

Although, I might just house rule the hell out of it for my next world.

Why would you house rule Hell specifically out of the Great Wheel?