Am I the only one who doesn't like the D&D Vampire? (Pointless rant, I suppose)

[Voadam]

Because they don't exist in a vacuum. If one lives in a world rife with vampires, one also lives in a world with people who know how to destroy vampires. In an RPG, that generally means "adventurers."

BTW, I have to say I'm honestly depressed that Ravenloft's barely received a mention in this discussion, and I don't think I say that totally selfishly.

Vampires that gain power with age: Check. (Ravenloft Third Edition)

Variant powers and salient abilities for all vampires: Check. (Ravenloft Third Edition)

Explanation for how vampires can feed without depopulating their hunting grounds: Check. (Secrets of the Dread Realms)

Variant vampire subtypes: Check. (Denizens of Darkness)

(Standard MM vampires too: Check.)

Romantic, "Byronic" vampire variant: Check. (Denizens of Darkness)

Vile, plague-spreading, "folkloric" vampire variant: Check. (Denizens of Darkness)

Method for vampire spawn to become true vampires: Check. (Denizens of Darkness, plus a sidenote in Ravenloft Third Edition)

As for stories about vampires "subjugating the whole earth," that would be the classic "I Am Legend" by Richard Matheson.

A couple of responses here.

If undead are powerful and easy to spawn, then the likely result is they will do so. The result being an unstoppable plague of undead until they decimate their feedstock and then start to stave.

Particularly in Ravenloft where the heroes are more likely to be Cthulhu investigators than Forgotten realms Uber combat fiends, a campaign world can't depend upon powerful heroes to check an entire village turned into spawn. As an ecological mechanism it fails once the mass spawning starts. Shadows are worse as they have less restrictions and weaknesses than vampires.

Van Richten hunts vamps down one at a time after careful invsetigation and loses companions all the time in doing so, there is no Buffy to stake a half dozen a night without breaking a sweat.

The Ravenloft vampires add great increasing power over time, as has been mentioned, but there is still the slap for energy drain or stat drain for most of them (standard vamps, elven, dwarven, gnome, halfling)

Secrets only had examples of how two vamps kept themselves in check, and they must make affirmative steps to keep themselves from spawning hordes, it is a bit much for every vamp to be assumed to do so, particularly those who are not lords.

I am legend only shows that if vamps get out then they take over the world. That is how that story goes.

 

[Mangrum]

Particularly in Ravenloft where the heroes are more likely to be Cthulhu investigators than Forgotten realms Uber combat fiends,

That's not actually the case. Ravenloft and Call of Cthulhu are very different styles of game.

a campaign world can't depend upon powerful heroes to check an entire village turned into spawn. As an ecological mechanism it fails once the mass spawning starts. Shadows are worse as they have less restrictions and weaknesses than vampires.

Keep in mind that having a shadow set out to wipe out the world is out of character for it; in fact, most of these "undead will wipe out the world" scenarios depend on ignoring the respective creatures' motivations, simply sending them out on a rampage for no particular reason. It makes even less sense for vampires to turn entire villages into spawn; vampires are predators, and as such don't prosper by wiping out their prey.

Van Richten hunts vamps down one at a time after careful invsetigation and loses companions all the time in doing so, there is no Buffy to stake a half dozen a night without breaking a sweat.

Well, yes, there is. Van Richten is Van Richten -- not everyone plays by his rules. George Weathermay is a RL hero who enjoys wading in and wiping out creatures in close combat. Also, if you have a paladin in your Ravenloft campaign, there's a Buffy right there.

Secrets only had examples of how two vamps kept themselves in check, and they must make affirmative steps to keep themselves from spawning hordes, it is a bit much for every vamp to be assumed to do so, particularly those who are not lords.

SotDR provided a general rule ("shallow feeding") and demonstrated how one vampire in particular used it.

And it's a bit much for an intelligent, long-term predator to take simple measures to ensure that A) it preserves its food source, and B) its presence can remain unnoticed?

 

[mmadsen]

Seeing this thread, I was wondering if anybody here knows of, or has designed, a fair vampire 'class' that my player can use.

I haven't yet, but I'm thinking about it. Naturally, I'd start with the Undead "class" from the Monster Manual:

Hit Die: d12
Attack Bonus: as Wizard (1/2 level)
Good Save: Will
Skill Points: 2/level

For its skill list, I'd choose the skills Vampires currently get a bonus at: Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. (Actually, given that list, I doubt I'd restrict Vampires to 2 skill points per level.)

For Bonus Feats, I'd start with the list of Feats Vampires currently get for free: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes. (Actually, those aren't too terribly vampiric.) To that list, I'd add all the Vampire Spawn's and true Vampire's powers: Charm (Dominate), Energy Drain (Improved Energy Drain), Blood Drain (Improved Blood Drain), Gaseous Form, Spider Climb, Fast Healing (Improved Fast Healing), Children of the Night, Create Spawn, Damage Reduction, Turn Resistance, Resistance, Alternate Form.

I'm not sure how I'd fit in the Ability bonuses.

 

[Always_a_DM]

I'm partial to the way Anne Rice's vampires work, but translating them to 3E in a way that would do them justice AND work within the confines of the rules would be a chunk of work.
You'd need rules for what abilities are passed to new vampires by their creators, and how their power levels grow over time, how bleeding a lot or making fledglings saps or dilutes the strength of their blood, for the purposes of passing on those powers... Still it would be neat.

what if you made Vampirism into a prestige class with being Undead as a prerequisite ?

 

[Always_a_DM]

Boy do I feel sheepish.

I've just seen the previous post. That'll teach me to refresh my browser more often.

 

[LostSoul]

I haven't yet, but I'm thinking about it. Naturally, I'd start with the Undead "class" from the Monster Manual:

That could really come in handy for my game. I've got a "half-vampire" class (the Avenger, from Ravenloft 2e) and I'm thinking about letting them swap levels from that class into some kind of Evil Vampire Prestige Class. (If they choose to go down that path.) Hmmm...

 

[mmadsen]

Let's look at what a Vampire Spawn can do, and we can use that as the basis for a 4th-level Vampire:

Hit Dice: 4d12
BAB: +2 (as Wizard)
+3 Natural Armor
Charm
Energy Drain
Blood Drain
Undead
+2 Turn Resistance
DR 10/silver
Cold & Electricity Resistance 10
Gaseous Form
Spider Climb
Fast Healing 2
Alertness
Improved Initiative
Lightning Reflexes
Skill Focus
Skills: 10 skills at +8 or higher

Actually, now that I've typed that out, a Vampire Spawn is just CR 4? Yeesh!

 

[Voadam]

That's not actually the case. Ravenloft and Call of Cthulhu are very different styles of game.



Keep in mind that having a shadow set out to wipe out the world is out of character for it; in fact, most of these "undead will wipe out the world" scenarios depend on ignoring the respective creatures' motivations, simply sending them out on a rampage for no particular reason. It makes even less sense for vampires to turn entire villages into spawn; vampires are predators, and as such don't prosper by wiping out their prey.



Well, yes, there is. Van Richten is Van Richten -- not everyone plays by his rules. George Weathermay is a RL hero who enjoys wading in and wiping out creatures in close combat. Also, if you have a paladin in your Ravenloft campaign, there's a Buffy right there.



SotDR provided a general rule ("shallow feeding") and demonstrated how one vampire in particular used it.

And it's a bit much for an intelligent, long-term predator to take simple measures to ensure that A) it preserves its food source, and B) its presence can remain unnoticed?

Ravenloft and CoC are two different styles of game, but I run my ravenloft campaign as a sort of D&D and Cthulhu type mix, lots of investigating, books of lore, dark powers, but the characters are much stronger than in CoC and can take down many creatures and I have more of a combat focus than I think I would if it were straight CoC.

I was thinking that for most incorporeal undead like ghosts, and spectres they are limited in the range they haunt so they won't spread as quickly, but a shadow is malicious, hates life and wants to strike out with its attacks against living prey. Since they don't have the flavor text of being restricted to an area they seem like they could run amok easily.

The paladin who was in my campaign was tough and dedicated in the fight against undead, but he was not up to taking out a pack of vampires on his own.

I've been running my ravenloft game since the first boxed set came out and I've always run it as the good guys are not as powerful as the bad in terms of numbers and levels. The fact that there are so many different baddies going for control or territory is what keeps various baddies in check, along with natural restrictions that I impose. Also every evil thing should have some weaknesses in addition to their powers which can be exploited.

I will have to reread the Secrets book again, it has been a number of months since I have read it. (My campaign's been in Sri Raji for the last year or so.

 

[mmadsen]

Let's look at what a Vampire Spawn can do, and we can use that as the basis for a 4th-level Vampire:...

Frankly, the Vampire Spawn looks damn tough for a 4th-level monster, and with a d12 Hit Die, lots of skills, and all sorts of powers, it's hard to come up with a reasonable 1st-level Vampire Spawn either. Let's take a quick stab at a class:

Hit Die: d12
Attack Bonus: as Wizard (1/2 level)
Good Save: Will
Skill Points: 8/level
Skill List: Bluff, Craft, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.

So far, it looks like a Rogue with twice the normal hit points, a weaker attack bonus, and a limited skill list (but lots of skill points).

If we look at the powers of a 4th-level Vampire Spawn, we should be able to find a subset for a 1st- through 3rd-level Vampire Spawn.

1st Level
Undead
Blood Drain
Energy Drain
Fast Healing 1
DR 5/silver
Cold & Electricity Resistance 5

2nd Level
Spider Climb
+1 Natural Armor
Fast Healing 2
DR 10/silver
Cold & Electricity Resistance 10

3rd Level
Charm
+2 Natural Armor
Fast Healing 2

4th Level
Gaseous Form
+3 Natural Armor
+2 Turn Resistance

That still looks pretty powerful, even without the Ability bonuses and the Feats (Alertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus).

 

[mmadsen]

Some of the Vampire's abilities take on a different tone in the hands of a player character. For instance, the Energy Drain and Blood Drain -- two powers feared by PCs on the receiving end -- aren't that exciting when you're the Vampire. Draining a level isn't much better than doing one Hit Die's damage, and the monsters you kill certainly aren't concerned that their level-loss might become permanent.

On the other hand, Spider Climb and Gaseous Form at will -- two seemingly minor powers -- can easily ruin adventures, especially low-level adventures. And DR? When's the last time you encountered a monster with silver weapons?