American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

[Thomas Bowman]

That's pretty much it, I said it before but people pretty much glossed over it.

 

[Riley37]

As a player, if I wrote a character who lives on the shore of the Mediterranean in 1250 BC, the gap between "how my PC would understand the situation" and "how I as a player would understand the situation" would be too wide for me. I can't imagine a Bronze Age warrior (not even with the wits of Odysseus) making sense of trans-Atlantic invaders, descended from Trans-Bering people who time travelled from the far future (relative to my character's birth) into the distant past.

 

[Agray Day]

This is how i would take it. Use the cultures as inspiration.

1) Fantasy Setting with some "name".

2) The world has continents somewhat like we have on earth with similar cultures in their respective areas of the early century.

3) Magic and Gods are reality and are at different stages of development for different cultures.

4) The Egyptian style culture (New Name) much like history had rebelled against the long history of God Kings to worship the sun god.
- As result the polar ice caps melted, this melting drowned the more technological European inspired Culture (New Name) think Atlantis.
- The old God Kings are unhappy but trapped by the new regime and a sect is trying to free them to conquer the new sun god.

5) As a result of this flood (Floods are in every culture as significant events and cleansing of the world) The remaining Cultures are have to move to the higher lands and/or become ocean travelers (think waterworld).

6) The Mayan/Inca inspired culture new "Name", have a huge working mechanical calander on a mountain top temple that is coming to an end.that soon will be ending, They are preparing for the coming of a god. Another Faction believes this coming is evil and is actively trying to stop it and destroy the calander before it counts down to doomsday.
-The have grand cities high in the mountains, and ride giant vultures and eagles.

7) Himalayan inspired mountains have many Cultures at war over the land that is left above the sea level. With many Giant island mountains on the china side sticking out.
Lets say:
- A Indian inspired Sea farering Culture with many gods. They make trips to underwater temples, live off the sea bounty, They have webbed hands and feet and can hold
their breath for long periods of time, they are firendly to the sea creatures, and protectors of the ocean bounty.
- A Tibetan Monk style culture living the highest in the clouds of steep mountain tops in giant 40 story pagodas and temples.
- A Turk/Persian inspired cultural traders who travel the mountains and take care banking and money (Think like the Templar).
- A Chinese inspired Culture that live on high mountain islands spread across the ocean, they are master seafarers and rule the seas, Often war with other seafaring cultures,
have a floating royal city that moves across the oceans and is hard to find as it exists in perpetual fog ring where ever it goes.

8) Norse & Russian inspired cultures in the northern islands, master seafarers constantly at war.
-Those lands were hit with giant meteors that have some special power property, and so wars are being fought over control of this material.
- The Norse have giant ark style boats that carry their clans across the seas, they have developed gills to breath underwater and hunt the great ocean beasts.

9) A Middle European inspired group living on volcanic islands of fire and ash, they are coinstantly looking for the lost tech of earlier cultures that were drowned in the seas (Think Atlantis) so that they can reclaim new land and become great again.

10) A lost ancient culture that has left their wondrous cities and temples intact and preserved by the ice, are now revealed as all the ice is gone.

*Note: there used to be a website where you could enter water level of the world and watch all the land masses change as the water level increases, that could be used as well for mapping or inspiration of lands, and distances.

My Example would use inspiration, and abstractness when trying to replicate history, Otherwise your treading on delicate ground and with it brings tons of baggage to the creative process.

-Agray

*Edited for clean up and clarity.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

As a player, if I wrote a character who lives on the shore of the Mediterranean in 1250 BC, the gap between "how my PC would understand the situation" and "how I as a player would understand the situation" would be too wide for me. I can't imagine a Bronze Age warrior (not even with the wits of Odysseus) making sense of trans-Atlantic invaders, descended from Trans-Bering people who time travelled from the far future (relative to my character's birth) into the distant past.

Yeah, you'd probably just chalk their origins up as a terrible mystery and call them "the Sea Peoples" or something...

Wait a minute...

 

[Thomas Bowman]

As a player, if I wrote a character who lives on the shore of the Mediterranean in 1250 BC, the gap between "how my PC would understand the situation" and "how I as a player would understand the situation" would be too wide for me. I can't imagine a Bronze Age warrior (not even with the wits of Odysseus) making sense of trans-Atlantic invaders, descended from Trans-Bering people who time travelled from the far future (relative to my character's birth) into the distant past.

You don't have to, your character only has to deal with the immediate situation in front of him. If some Indians bring their magic thunder sticks and try to conquer and enslave your character, your character will understand that situation quite well, and he would adapt just as the Indians in our history did, perhaps a little better, because our history Indians weren't quite as advanced as the Bronze Age with Europeans first came over. I'm sure the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians and others could figure out how to make such things as muskets or printing presses, once they have samples to copy and work from. The difference between Renaissance and Bronze age is really very little. If Bronze agers capture a black smith or obtain a printing press or a gun and know what it does, they could probably build one in short order. Those devices are not beyond their comprehension, they just haven't thought of them. It is easier to copy than invent.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

You don't have to, your character only has to deal with the immediate situation in front of him. If some Indians bring their magic thunder sticks and try to conquer and enslave your character, your character will understand that situation quite well, and he would adapt just as the Indians in our history did, perhaps a little better, because our history Indians weren't quite as advanced as the Bronze Age with Europeans first came over. I'm sure the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians and others could figure out how to make such things as muskets or printing presses, once they have samples to copy and work from. The difference between Renaissance and Bronze age is really very little. If Bronze agers capture a black smith or obtain a printing press or a gun and know what it does, they could probably build one in short order. Those devices are not beyond their comprehension, they just haven't thought of them. It is easier to copy than invent.

People are very clever, and certainly being exposed to new technology dramatically increases the speed at which they themselves adopt it. But I think you're underestimating the infrastructure necessary to produce machined devices like guns and presses. All around the world in our history, colonizees began to use guns almost immediately after contact with colonizers. But very few had the capacity to manufacture them. If there is such a thing as a native-made Zulu or Comanche rifle from the 19th Century, I've never heard about it. Hell, this even goes for "modern" societies that are not so well off. The standard Finnish battle rifle of World War II was a captured Russian battle rifle.

And this isn't even getting into the problem of gunpowder production.

 

[Riley37]

You don't have to, your character only has to deal with the immediate situation in front of him.

This does not address the first sentence of my post.

(shrug) if you have players who are interested, then have fun. not my cup of tea.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

People are very clever, and certainly being exposed to new technology dramatically increases the speed at which they themselves adopt it. But I think you're underestimating the infrastructure necessary to produce machined devices like guns and presses. All around the world in our history, colonizees began to use guns almost immediately after contact with colonizers. But very few had the capacity to manufacture them. If there is such a thing as a native-made Zulu or Comanche rifle from the 19th Century, I've never heard about it. Hell, this even goes for "modern" societies that are not so well off. The standard Finnish battle rifle of World War II was a captured Russian battle rifle.

And this isn't even getting into the problem of gunpowder production.

You think a Pharaoh that has organized the building of a pyramid could command the labor necessary to build a musket? I don't think the Indians had such organization. Anyway, I don't know whether the Indians will know enough to conquer Egypt first, they might conquer some other hapless barbarians on the west coast, and the Pharaoh would hear about it. A tribe can't be expected to get so heavily into musket manufacture, but a civilization with its own writing system, which has built many monuments temples and pyramids, might have the necessary labor to build one of those things. They certainly could build a printing press, as that is made out of wooden blocks with character symbols on it. I think Egypt has the necessary artisans to carve those hieroglyphics onto wooden blocks and glue them onto a printing press. Egypt already has papyrus, they could start printing books right away.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Yeah, maybe not the best approach. But you could start at around 1000 AD.

The Norse from Iceland almost had a permanent settlement at the northern tip of the northernmost tip of Newfoundland (google "L'Anse aux Meadows") around the year 1,000. It failed (based on the legends recorded in the Saga of Greenland and the Saga of Eric the Red) because of infighting among the settlers and constant hostiliteis from the natives whose lands the Icelanders were encroaching upon. If the Norse were able to gained a stronger foothold, not enough to conquer vast areas and peoples but enough to maintain a strong permanent presence with trade and eventual transmission of shipbuilding and metal working knowlege to the Native Americans of the North West.

I'm not sure how strong trade routes were between Iceland and the rest of Europe at this time. I don't think that the Native Americans would get nearly 500 years of breathing space, taking advantage of Norse metalworking and shipbuilding skills. If there was strong, continual trade tie between Iceland and North American, I expect other European nations would have made their way their centuries earlier. The interesting question is whether the Native Americans would have been better situation to quell European explorationan and colonization of the New World if their had been more lasting and meaningful exchanges with the Norse.

This is deserving of a separate thread of its own. If the Vikings established a permanent colony in North America, Vikings would talk about it, they travel across the whole world and like to brag about their exploits, other kingdoms would eventually hear about what they were doing printing press or no, and Scandinavia has a small population, not really sufficient for conquering two whole new continents. The Kings and Queens of Europe have gold and silver, and could probably hire a few of these Vikings to take them across the ocean.

 

[Umbran]

You think a Pharaoh that has organized the building of a pyramid could command the labor necessary to build a musket?

The issue isn't labor force. The issue is understanding of metallurgy. Developing that understanding is not just a matter of throwing unskilled labor at it.