American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

[MNblockhead]

I'm going to proceed from the assumption that the 1250BC date has been chosen for the state of European and African technology and political organization. So, the assumption is that the Native Americans have c1492 RL tech and the "Old World" (this setting's New World) has the tech it had in RL 1250.

in 1250, Greece is pre-Classical - heck, the Greek alphabet hasn't even been invented/formalized yet. Egypt is at its height or maybe past its prime? In Europe, the Celtic culture isn't even really a thing, yet.

To get the Native Americans to c1492 levels by 1250BC, I think you need a much more competitive American milieu. Maybe a lot more Asians hunt and fish their way into the Americas, at least 15,000 years ago. Maybe their fleeing something in Asia? How NAs get so advanced so quickly is what I'm trying to get at here. Answering that question could help define the setting.

Yeah, maybe not the best approach. But you could start at around 1000 AD.

The Norse from Iceland almost had a permanent settlement at the northern tip of the northernmost tip of Newfoundland (google "L'Anse aux Meadows") around the year 1,000. It failed (based on the legends recorded in the Saga of Greenland and the Saga of Eric the Red) because of infighting among the settlers and constant hostiliteis from the natives whose lands the Icelanders were encroaching upon. If the Norse were able to gained a stronger foothold, not enough to conquer vast areas and peoples but enough to maintain a strong permanent presence with trade and eventual transmission of shipbuilding and metal working knowlege to the Native Americans of the North West.

I'm not sure how strong trade routes were between Iceland and the rest of Europe at this time. I don't think that the Native Americans would get nearly 500 years of breathing space, taking advantage of Norse metalworking and shipbuilding skills. If there was strong, continual trade tie between Iceland and North American, I expect other European nations would have made their way their centuries earlier. The interesting question is whether the Native Americans would have been better situation to quell European explorationan and colonization of the New World if their had been more lasting and meaningful exchanges with the Norse.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

I wouldn't even call 1453 dark age any more but early renaissance.

That was the Eastern Roman Empire also called Byzantium, the Western Roman Empire who's capitol was Rome ended during the Dark Ages, in 476 AD, the Dark Ages had already begun, what ended in 476 AD was a small remnant of the Western Roman Empire, and it could be argued that since the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantium didn't have Rome as its Capitol, it wasn't technically the Roman Empire at all, but a Greek Empire instead. The language spoken in Byzantium was Greek not Latin. Your right though, 1453 was actually the Late Renaissance, what occured later is actually referred to as the Early Modern Period. 1492 was about the end of the Late Renaissance and the beginning of the Early Modern Period, as far as D&D is concerned it is when gunpowder weapons started to replace the various bows and crossbows that were used on the battlefield. I believe the Early Modern Period ended with the beginning of the Industrial Revolution in the 1700s.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

How about the Irish? Their language has survived thousands of years.

Barely. Gaelic is on life support. Ireland is mostly an English speaking country today.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Yeah, maybe not the best approach. But you could start at around 1000 AD.

The Norse from Iceland almost had a permanent settlement at the northern tip of the northernmost tip of Newfoundland (google "L'Anse aux Meadows") around the year 1,000. It failed (based on the legends recorded in the Saga of Greenland and the Saga of Eric the Red) because of infighting among the settlers and constant hostiliteis from the natives whose lands the Icelanders were encroaching upon. If the Norse were able to gained a stronger foothold, not enough to conquer vast areas and peoples but enough to maintain a strong permanent presence with trade and eventual transmission of shipbuilding and metal working knowlege to the Native Americans of the North West.

I'm not sure how strong trade routes were between Iceland and the rest of Europe at this time. I don't think that the Native Americans would get nearly 500 years of breathing space, taking advantage of Norse metalworking and shipbuilding skills. If there was strong, continual trade tie between Iceland and North American, I expect other European nations would have made their way their centuries earlier. The interesting question is whether the Native Americans would have been better situation to quell European explorationan and colonization of the New World if their had been more lasting and meaningful exchanges with the Norse.

that is a different scenario. The Vikings of 1000 AD had bows and arrows just like the Indians did. Viking ships were not the best at transporting cattle or horses, so I suspect the Vikings in the New World didn't have them, and the fact that the Indians didn't have horses when Columbus discovered them indicates that the Vikings didn't bring many horses over to the New World if any, they didn't spread and become wild as when the Spaniards arrived.

Here is a reconstructed Viking ship, you see any place where they might put horses? Without those horses, the Vikings lose a major advantage they could have had over the Indians, but they didn't have horses, so they were on foot and so were the Indians, and in the end the Vikings decided that it wasn't worth sticking around and so they left.

 

[Shasarak]

Barely. Gaelic is on life support. Ireland is mostly an English speaking country today.

There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Well you seem to have an agenda to get me, that is all I know! You don't seem to be here just to enjoy yourself, your on a mission, and I think its a very petty one.

...

Oookay. Insofar as I have an "agenda", I have already told you what it is, and it is certainly not to "get" you (I mean, seriously, dude?). Let me walk you through it.

"I'm prepared in principle to have a good vigorous discussion about the extent to which the accusation of cultural appropriation can apply to historical fiction and whether that's even a bad thing..."
Translation: I want to call those crazy bleeding-heart pinko hippies on all their bull.

...but the more you say the more I'm convinced that no, the naysayers are right, you specifically should not do this."
Translation: I can't do that when the hot mess coming out of your keyboard is proving their point for them.

 

[Bluenose]

There are some interesting ideas that can be used from Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel". He presents a thesis that several factors combined to determine societal progress in several measures. The three most directly notable are Geography (for example, comparing the ready internal communication of China to the more distant communications in Europe), Domesticatable Animals (the New World did not have domesticatable large animals while the Old World did), and Domesticatable Plant Species. His argument is that the New World was deficient in these important factors, and that slowed the rate of progress such that when the Old and New Worlds met, the New World was relatively less developed.

Following that, a way to advance the development of the New World would be to add in missing elements: Give the New World horses and Wheat well before 1500 AD (ish) and have as a result a more rapid development.

Thx!
TomB

A small correction, the New World had plenty of domesticatable plant species (rice, maize, potatoes, and many others). It was large animals that could be domesticated that were rare (the llama, alpaca, and perhaps the Turkey). There are a number of reasons why the lack of those would have a severe impact on farming (ploughing, for instance, is much less efficient). There's also an argument in Diamond's book that in Eurasia east-west transmission of a variety of food plants was much easier because they'd stay within a climate zone, where the Americas north-south alignment meant the south American civilisations couldn't utilise most central American crops because the climate wasn't suitable. What that suggests is that if there's contact between different regions of the Americas with different civilisations, then they might develop extensive trade networks to exchange unusual goods. That could be the start of a technological revolution that would bring Americans to Europe, although prevailing wind/sea current directions aren't exactly favourable for some of that potential trade (or for going to Europe in some regions).

 

[Jhaelen]

mmh, this popcorn sure is tasty

 

[TheCosmicKid]

How about the Irish? Their language has survived thousands of years.

Well...

Thousands of years? No. And over the thousand-and-a-half years or so we can study, the language, like all languages, evolved a lot. Old Irish (~AD 600-900) is apparently somewhat recognizable as Irish; the Primitive Irish that came before really isn't.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

And many woudln't call Byzanitum circa 1453 CE the Roman Empire.

But the Byzantines circa 1453 would have.

So would the Ottomans circa their walls.