American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

[TheCosmicKid]

I guess you want to be offended don't you, cause you are looking for offense where none is intended. So how much does that job pay? Does someone pay you to look for offense or to be offended? Because I got a real job that pays real money, I don't look to be offended by every little thing, because I can't earn a living doing that, and it does not profit me to do so. So why do you look so hard to find offense? Don't you like to enjoy yourself every once in a while, that's all I am here for, how about you?

For your information I have not used stereotypes, in fact I have gone out of my way to avoid them. To suggest that American Indians would form armies, use muskets, build wooden ships and explore and conquer various parts of the World is not using a stereotype about them that I am aware of. Can you produce a single Indian that would be offended if I suggest that his people can do great things? if you can, then I would bet, he would be a very small minority among his people.

If you are not an Indian, then you have no right to speak for them or to be offended for them. If any are offended let them speak for themselves! The purpose of role playing is not to offend people. This is alternate history for one thing.

You're not exactly improving your position when you so clearly didn't read a word I wrote. What was the very first sentence of my post?

 

[Derren]

That is the fun of it, telling your players to expect American Indians, and then you describe how uniformed troops of American Indians march off of their wooden ships, and all line up in formation with their muskets ready and begin firing their muskets in regular drill, that is counter-stereotypical of what most people expect when they hear the term "American Indian." There is another stereotype of the Indian as well, as that of a victim, a lot of people are guilty of using that stereotype as well. American Indians don't need people to feel sorry for them, they need people to treat them as human beings which they are.

Speaking about historical accuracy vs. conveying impressions with stereotypes, this tactics would be far more advanced than what the Europeans used when they first came to America. At the end of the 15th century they still used mercenaries a lot and it was the beginning of the pike and shot era with large pike formations (Tercios and the Swiss pikemen being the most famous) intermingled with a small amount of muskets or even crossbows. And cannons mostly used as siege weapon while their use as field gun as in its infancy.
But in pop culture this isn't known very much. There you go from knights straight to musket lines used by Napoleon, so if you want to portray the civilized and advanced nature of the invading natives that is the representation you would use despite its historical inaccuracy.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

You're not exactly improving your position when you so clearly didn't read a word I wrote. What was the very first sentence of my post?

What can I say, you want to be offended and are trying very hard to be. Being offended should come naturally, you shouldn't need to try real hard to be offended so the moderators will shut people up!

The Indians wouldn't be called Indians if they invaded the Old World, in which they will eventually meet real Indians!
So I guess you don't want to have fun here and have free intellectual discussions, you only want to be offended, and if that is how you get your kicks, then I feel sorry for you.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

What can I say, you want to be offended and are trying very hard to be. Being offended should come naturally, you shouldn't need to try real hard to be offended so the moderators will shut people up!

The Indians wouldn't be called Indians if they invaded the Old World, in which they will eventually meet real Indians!
So I guess you don't want to have fun here and have free intellectual discussions, you only want to be offended, and if that is how you get your kicks, then I feel sorry for you.

Your interpretation of my motives runs into the pesky little detail that not only have I never said I'm offended, I've explicitly said that I'm not going to take offense on anyone's behalf. I'd say "don't let that stop you from embarrassing yourself", but I actually do want you to stop, so the rest of us can have an intellectual discussion without having to deal with this.

 

[Lylandra]

Most such cultures wouldn't have survived 2250 years of technological progress, most of the languages that existed back then would have changed so as to be unrecognizable to most of the Indian tribes we know of today. Do you know of any culture or nation in Europe that survived 2250 of history? Are there any Romans, or Babylonians, or Egyptians? One might say the Greeks have survived, but they aren't the dominant culture in Europe, and the language the Greeks speak today is not the same language spoken by the Greeks during the Trojan War, I don't think Indians would be any different, so a lot of their new culture would be made up. These aren't the nature oriented savages that you are so familiar with. The Indians have learned new tactics in warfighting and have forgotten old ones.

Don't want to derail too much, but... wait, what?

So many aspects of ancient era Europe survive to this very day. The idea of democracy became popular in ancient Greece. Most of our law procedures stem from the Roman law system to the point where law students are required to take courses in Roman law. Greek philosophy was widely popular and even considered state of the art in the Rennaissance. Our basic mathematic principles that we still use today were discovered by greek mathematicians, these guys even calculated the circumference of the earth before it was cool (take that, flat-earthers!). They also invented star-based navigation which was a thing until very recently. Ancient Greek architecture is still popular in high-class houses and museums (mediterranean style with all these columns). Heck, even the Olympic Games and the idea of competitive sports are old as dirt.

So while we indeed have no 1:1 Ancient Greek culture, all of our western culture evolved from these Ancients. Call it a remix if you wish. But these cultures are not lost in the sense of being obliterated by history.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Don't want to derail too much, but... wait, what?

So many aspects of ancient era Europe survive to this very day. The idea of democracy became popular in ancient Greece. Most of our law procedures stem from the Roman law system to the point where law students are required to take courses in Roman law. Greek philosophy was widely popular and even considered state of the art in the Rennaissance. Our basic mathematic principles that we still use today were discovered by greek mathematicians, these guys even calculated the circumference of the earth before it was cool (take that, flat-earthers!). They also invented star-based navigation which was a thing until very recently. Ancient Greek architecture is still popular in high-class houses and museums (mediterranean style with all these columns). Heck, even the Olympic Games and the idea of competitive sports are old as dirt.

So while we indeed have no 1:1 Ancient Greek culture, all of our western culture evolved from these Ancients. Call it a remix if you wish. But these cultures are not lost in the sense of being obliterated by history.

The Romans actually survived until the Dark Ages, the Eastern part of that Empire lasted longer, and for a time your country once called itself the "Holy Roman Empire." We mostly don't worship the same gods the Ancient Romans did before they adopted Christianity. Lots of things change in 2000 years, I think it is safe to talk about people who lived 3250 years ago without offending anyone today. Let me give you an example. What if I said the Ancient Romans were cruel with their blood sports and feeding Christians to the lions? Would any Italians be offended by that?

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Your interpretation of my motives runs into the pesky little detail that not only have I never said I'm offended, I've explicitly said that I'm not going to take offense on anyone's behalf. I'd say "don't let that stop you from embarrassing yourself", but I actually do want you to stop, so the rest of us can have an intellectual discussion without having to deal with this.

Well you seem to have an agenda to get me, that is all I know! You don't seem to be here just to enjoy yourself, your on a mission, and I think its a very petty one.

 

[Derren]

The Romans actually survived until the Dark Ages, the Eastern part of that Empire lasted longer, and for a time your country once called itself the "Holy Roman Empire." We mostly don't worship the same gods the Ancient Romans did before they adopted Christianity. Lots of things change in 2000 years, I think it is safe to talk about people who lived 3250 years ago without offending anyone today. Let me give you an example. What if I said the Ancient Romans were cruel with their blood sports and feeding Christians to the lions? Would any Italians be offended by that?

I wouldn't even call 1453 dark age any more but early renaissance.

 

[Shasarak]

Most such cultures wouldn't have survived 2250 years of technological progress, most of the languages that existed back then would have changed so as to be unrecognizable to most of the Indian tribes we know of today. Do you know of any culture or nation in Europe that survived 2250 of history? Are there any Romans, or Babylonians, or Egyptians? One might say the Greeks have survived, but they aren't the dominant culture in Europe, and the language the Greeks speak today is not the same language spoken by the Greeks during the Trojan War, I don't think Indians would be any different, so a lot of their new culture would be made up. These aren't the nature oriented savages that you are so familiar with. The Indians have learned new tactics in warfighting and have forgotten old ones.

How about the Irish? Their language has survived thousands of years.

 

[pemerton]

I wouldn't even call 1453 dark age any more but early renaissance.

And many woudln't call Byzanitum circa 1453 CE the Roman Empire.