American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

[dragoner]

Given the subject matter and the OP's flagrant disregard for handling it with anything remotely approaching respect (or historical research), I could have guessed that would have been inevitable.

Even the title could be considered political; but this train was always going to wreck, it was inevitable.

What someone should or not be insulted by is up to them, then again they should have the same courtesy to others. Though from experience, their life's journey, and how close they are to "the rez" informs that. My wife's father was born in America on a reservation, left for Mexico because conditions were better there, then came back and was called an illegal alien, oh the irony.

 

[Riley37]

I'd have said "Mars", but the reference to that other Justice Leaguer would not have been as clear. I think the point is made regardless.

Oh, the point stands, regarding individual autonomy and responsibility. I'm raising the idea that even if justice is an objective phenomenon, we each *see* it from individual perspective, such as the difference between Kal-El raised with the teachings (and loyalties) of the Kents, versus Jonzz raised with the culture of the Green Martians. Extending the metaphor of observing an object - such as a statue of Justice, with sword and scales - from one perspective: if one can walk around, and look at the statue again from another direction, one might then learn more about the full truth of the shape of Justice. Much as the blind people touching the elephant are all studying the same item, but starting with different parts... and with the option of learning from each other, or just bickering. Though as with the first-hand accounts from the Battle of Little Bighorn, sometimes the sum of the accounts of multiple observers still lacks satisfying coherence. (Thucydides had a somewhat similar description of the various stories he heard from participants in the Peloponessian War: what one event could have produced all these divergent stories?) Kal-El might see a perspective from the Fortress, and from the JLA satellite and the Bat-cave, which adds to the understandings he picked up from the Kents in his early life.

Some of us just accept what we were taught as children, and disregard any further input which doesn't match that paradigm; while others check those teachings against ongoing observation, truth testing, consistency checking. I think that divide might be part of the tensions of this thread, if you know what I mean.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

There is no universal view of justice or "right" though. American society can't even agree on what constitutes murder, freedom, or justice. Much less compared though the world.

 

[Gradine]

There is no universal view of justice or "right" though. American society can't even agree on what constitutes murder, freedom, or justice. Much less compared though the world.

A lack of agreement does not constitute a lack of objective truth. See also: glob- <is viciously murdered by Morrus's trusty board ninjas before he can finish that thought>

I'm not saying that I think there is an objective truth as to what constitutes justice or what constitutes "right", but I do think that that there universally true aspects of each that are nonetheless not universally agreed upon.

 

[dragoner]

Some of us just accept what we were taught as children, and disregard any further input which doesn't match that paradigm; while others check those teachings against ongoing observation, truth testing, consistency checking. I think that divide might be part of the tensions of this thread, if you know what I mean.

Which is anathema if you are in a science oriented career, data forms the conclusion, so that could change with new data. Though America in general seems to be turning away from science.

 

[Riley37]

Even the title could be considered political; but this train was always going to wreck, it was inevitable.

Title uses Indians rather than Natives, Trans-Bering Americans, First Peoples, etc. (and OP later uses "Red Indian"). Disputing genocide, however, raises the stakes. Try telling Armenians that the sudden decrease in the Armenian population in the 1920s was just an accident of history, because their culture was incompatible with Turkish culture. See how well that goes over.

So can we give this thread a clean death, or will mod involvement eventually become necessary?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Title uses Indians rather than Natives, Trans-Bering Americans, First Peoples, etc. (and OP later uses "Red Indian").

Too many of the people in question call themselves "Indians" for you to be insisting on alternatives, methinks. (The term in the parenthetical, however, is another matter.)

 

[Riley37]

Too many of the people in question call themselves "Indians" for you to be insisting on alternatives, methinks.

True. I'm not *insisting*; I'm pointing out that there's a spectrum; using any of the alternative terms would have indicated a different position on that spectrum. I don't expect everyone on EN World to stand with me on the left side on that spectrum. (And I can't argue with how people refer to themselves.) EN World routinely requires civility across differences on such matters. I'm saying that the title gave an initial hint, of the OP's position on a topic which is related to ongoing disputes with political aspects in the USA (for example, the names of some sports teams, or the Malheur occupation, or pipeline routes)...

(The term in the parenthetical, however, is another matter.)

...and that subsequent posts went further and further into disputed territory, as you pointed out in blunter terms around page 2 or 3. Thus: raising the stakes.

OP has laid out his position. I still believe that the "Halooo" scenario doesn't accurately represent Columbus with the Taino, nor Cortez, nor Buffalo Bill, nor Andrew Jackson, but if the OP insists that it does, then all I can do is raise questions, and express disagreement. Same for whether the 1860 Wiyot Massacre was morally grey. Same for whether that conflict in 1860s was a Civil War, or a War Between the States.

So: what next?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

True. I'm not *insisting*; I'm pointing out that there's a spectrum; using any of the alternative terms would have indicated a different position on that spectrum.

Yes, your suggested terms are shibboleths for particular positions on this spectrum. "Indian", however, is used by people all over the spectrum, and cannot by itself be taken as an indicator of anything. That, or I have badly misread Russell Means' politics.

 

[Riley37]

Have I at long last given you occasion to correct a "hippy"?

I could quibble on Means and the "en dios" etymology, or on whether Trans-Bering qualifies as a sibboleth, but I'll take your word for it. Perhaps I'm in such a liberal bubble that my experience of who uses what terms, in the last decade or so, has been narrower than the full range. (FWIW, I see a nuance of formality between "Indian" by itself, versus "American Indian" as in the title.) I was agreeing with Dragoner on whether the title of the OP could be considered political, so perhaps Dragoner has a counter-point (or counter-counter-point). If it's worth pursuing.