Ampersand: Sneak Attack

[hong]

You seem to be conflating "build" with the choice of Rogue Tactics. "Build" is a suggestion of talents/feats/etc to pick. "Rogue Tactics" is a game mechanical choice. The latter is a lot more like the ranger in 3e; the former is more like the archetype suggestions discussed in Hero Builder's Guidebook or Complete XXX, just with more of an authoritarian weight to it due to the MMORPG association.

"Authoritarian weight"?

 

[fafhrd]

"Authoritarian weight"?

Warlord power.

 

[Eldorian]

Warlord power.

Fat warlord power?

 

[fafhrd]

Authoritarian Weight
Warlord Attack 5
Gravitas and girth provide a weighty retort.

Encounter [ ] Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a mutton haunch.
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Reflex

Hit: 2[W] + Charisma modifier damage.
Fat Bastard: Target is pinned.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I don't really want to read through 650+ posts, but one thing did stand out - Initiative skill.

I thought Initiative was a skill now in 4th edition. Wouldn't it make sense for it to fall under the Rogue's blanket of skills?

Yeah I think it is in SWSE but obviously hasn't carried over to 4E
Edit: some one said that because everybody max's/trains in initiative it means a wasted 'choice'. Therefore make everyone 'untrained' and off you go.

 

[Felon]

(Aside: Allowing harriers to use Power Attack is broken, is why mearls did that. It's also not "light one-handed weapon only"; harriers are merely not allowed to use Power feats with mobile assault. A harrier can still use a big sword, and in fact gains several advantages from doing so. Besides, you can nicely multiclass harrier with berserker and use march of ruin with Power weapons if you want that concept.)

Whatever. There's definitely some kind of light weapon or finesse weapon restriction in the harrier's abilities. I don't have the book on hand, but I've played one and used a katana for the very reason that it combines power and finesse. Oh, and I remember that without the errata a scimitar was a no-go.

Dunno why you'd declare Power Attack to be broken in combination with harrier abilities. I mean, it's not any more broken than the way that everyone fomds a wau to break it. It's broken that you can combine offensive and efensive challenges for mondo damage. Iron Heroes is basically a game about insan damage-dealing builds.

In IH, if you're not broken, you're....kinda broken.

 

[Ahglock]

I found that it was. Really, flanking/not flanking is a binary trigger. That just leaves me to handwave relative distances between points.

Re: larger discussion about per encounter and per day abilities.

I've done some fighting in the past. I'm just guessing, but I can probably hurt someone the most with a kick to the pelvis. For some odd reason, I've never been in a fight where I kicked the other guy in the pelvis 12 times in a row, while never attacking him with my hands. That's what happens if you allow everything as an at will attack. It isn't realistic that you would use only your best possible attack, over and over. The ebb and flow of the fight will force you to use other, less optimal choices. I think its fine to represent this with a selection of at will abilities, some situational abilities, and some abilities you can only use a limited number of times. That's the least cumbersome way I can come up with to mimic something like how often in a fight you can throw a heavy kick instead of a quick jab.

Um yeah, and again that explanation only works so far. Lets say pelvis kick is a special per encounter maneuver. People get the idea that kicking Bob in the pelvis 12 times in a row is a bit hard to buy. And they get the per encounter part for this style of explanation when it is appropriate. But its even harder to buy that he couldn't do the pelvis kick 15 seconds later on Joe who didn't even see the first pelvis kick. But mysteriously if Joe was in the 2nd room you could pelvis kick him 1 minute later.

If you want location based moves and trick moves limited so they aren't used over and over again, make it so there would be a reason why the PC wouldn't try it. Make them at will but flag them as trick/called shot moves. Say anytime someone is struck by moves like pelvis kick they get +5 to there AC to try to avoid another pelvis kick from the same opponent in the encounter. Each use of pelvis kick against the target increases the targets Ac to avoid that move by an additional +5. Anyone who perceives the pelvis kick style moves taking place gains a +5 to there Ac to block it, but it does not stack due to additional viewings.

 

[hong]

Um yeah, and again that explanation only works so far. Lets say pelvis kick is a special per encounter maneuver. People get the idea that kicking Bob in the pelvis 12 times in a row is a bit hard to buy. And they get the per encounter part for this style of explanation when it is appropriate. But its even harder to buy that he couldn't do the pelvis kick 15 seconds later on Joe who didn't even see the first pelvis kick. But mysteriously if Joe was in the 2nd room you could pelvis kick him 1 minute later.

D00d, if you can grok hit points, you can grok per-encounter. Trust me, I'm a statistician.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Felon: The IH discussion is OT, so I'm responding in spoilers:

Spoiler

Whatever. There's definitely some kind of light weapon or finesse weapon restriction in the harrier's abilities. I don't have the book on hand, but I've played one and used a katana for the very reason that it combines power and finesse. Oh, and I remember that without the errata a scimitar was a no-go.

That's what errata is for.

"You cannot use Power feats in combination with mobile assault." That is the entirety of the language.

Dunno why you'd declare Power Attack to be broken in combination with harrier abilities. I mean, it's not any more broken than the way that everyone fomds a wau to break it. It's broken that you can combine offensive and efensive challenges for mondo damage. Iron Heroes is basically a game about insan damage-dealing builds.

Not so much. D&D leads to far more brokenness due to the availability of magic. IH has very, very few means to boost attack bonuses (or any individual bonus) to insane levels due to the absence of buffing effects, magic items, and so on. (Nothing in the game is remotely equivalent to true strike, for instance.) Mobile assault is one of the very few high-scaling ways to get attack rolls, hence the prohibition.

Back on topic: I think it's okay for the game to foster archetypes like the light-weaponed rogue. I think it was a big problem of 3e that it had to have tools available to make pretty much anything, but those tools created all sorts of screwed-up possibilities. As I said, I don't want to see the greatsword-wielding rogue of 1e/2e coming back.

 

[Ahglock]

D00d, if you can grok hit points, you can grok per-encounter. Trust me, I'm a statistician.

I can grok HP, but no I can not grok per-encounter with a set of generic answers. And certain moves there is no answer for it being per-encounter other than balance. Heck no one in my game is really groking the per-encounter mechanics in SAGA.

To get per-encounter abilities to work for me, I'm probably going to need some flavor text in each per-encounter ability describing they why, and it better not suck to hard.