An "appropriate" system for LOTR?

[WizarDru]

They are envoys of the Valar (closest thing to gods in ME) and their powers reflect that. Radagast the brown certainly came from a Valar of Nature, Saruman from on of the most powerful and Gandalf originally was the least important and least powerful.

By whom? Certainly not by the Valar. As Olorin, Gandalf was considered the wisest and most important of his order as a Maiar servant of Manwe. Saruman was determined to be the most powerful and led the Istari...but when they reached the Grey Havens, Cirdan the ShipWright gave the ring of Narya to Gandalf...not Saruman. Even then, some could tell who was truly the wisest of them.

Only humans truly used what might consider 'magic' per se. The elves merely did things so wondrous, they appeared as magic to other races such as men and hobbits. In fact, they found the use of the term 'magic' distatsteful and odd...as that, in their minds, confused their skills at making beautfiul things with the Enemy's foul black arts. References are made to humans and possibly some others who actually use magic (one way that Sauron was able to put off suspicion as 'the necromancer' for some time, presumably), particularly the Numenoreans.

Generally, however, magic is very subtle and quiet in Middle Earth. To the elves, simply making things well was tantamount to magic to other races. Consider the examples of the elven cloaks, lembas bread, elven rope or Sting. Humans could do similar things, but in many cases, these were humans who had mixed with elves or had learned their arts. And by the time of the Third Age, most of such items or examples are handed-down from distant ancestors. It is doubtful that Aragorn could curse an entire host of men the way that Isildur did, nor that Gimli and his kind could forge the same weapons even as the King under the Mountain. A central theme of LotR is the fading of the elves and of magic.

And let's be honest, the single biggest question about representing Middle Earth in game terms is magic. Aragorn could be modeled several different ways (and you see examples of how over at the d20 Middle Earth site). Setting aside the Istari, the question is to devise a system where magic is possible without cheapening it, and yet making it simialr to Tolkien's very "anti-Vancian" style. Gandalf casts, between LotR and The Hobbit, something on the odds of a dozen spells, at most? And many of these would barely qualify. Some of them are so sublte as to be difficult to discern. A case could just as strongly be made that Gandlaf was a Bard, Cleric, Psion, Psionic Warrior or Paladin with some powerful artifacts on hand. It's not beyond the realm of reason that he has no true powers at all, as we understand them. And given how subtle LotR magic generally is, and how rare it's practicioners, it may not even be a relevant question. Except for the Istari and some servants of the enemy, we know of no major characters who would qualify, to begin with, unless they're elves, and as I said before, they don't perform anything even similar to what we would consider Vancian magic.

The second biggest problem is the nature of the elves, who are, in almost every way relevant to a game, superior to humans, dwarves and hobbits. They are the first race of Arda, created by Illuvatar himself, and possess far more advantages than any other group. Finding a way to balance them against other players in a game context is a challenge. Not an insurmountable one, but one that has to be acknowledged, regardless of what system you're using.

 

[Zweischneid's Wrath]

Only humans truly used what might consider 'magic' per se. The elves merely did things so wondrous, they appeared as magic to other races such as men and hobbits. In fact, they found the use of the term 'magic' distatsteful and odd...as that, in their minds, confused their skills at making beautfiul things with the Enemy's foul black arts.

Generally, however, magic is very subtle and quiet in Middle Earth. To the elves, simply making things well was tantamount to magic to other races. Consider the examples of the elven cloaks, lembas bread, elven rope or Sting.

True, but many Elfes in D&D Settings would likely use a similar Argumentation. Magic being a very natural thing to elves, something they are born with, is an idea that D&D copied as well

If you want to play it with D20, I still think the best solution would be to just go ahead and use "True Strike" for Legolas fine Archery or "Orc-Bane" or "Magic Weapon" for Sting and similar Swords.

The exact metaphysical expanation (divine favor, threads of arcane energy, spirits or demons bound by the characters will, blood of the dragons in his veins, an additional cerebral lobe, whatever) behind those powers can always be bend and adjusted to the setting of your choice, including the reasoning of them being not magic at all, but mythical abilities that surpass the average mortal by far.

The premise D20 was design on, was to provide quick and easy mechanics for the resolution of combat, magic, whatever.

It was not designed to more or less realistically mimic the mechanics of combat or magic a person (character) from the fictional world (setting) would explain to you "in-character" if asked.

(As mentioned, games like Riddle of Steel or White Wolf games tend to be far more focused on the mixing of in- and out-of-character reasonings than D&D is.)

It is doubtful that Aragorn could curse an entire host of men the way that Isildur did, nor that Gimli and his kind could forge the same weapons even as the King under the Mountain. A central theme of LotR is the fading of the elves and of magic.

And let's be honest, the single biggest question about representing Middle Earth in game terms is magic.

Ok, but lets be honest. Even though magic is fading, most players will want to (and should) be the exception to the rule.


I mean even in the Forgotten Realms the vast majority of the people are simply commoners who never left their village and wouldn't stand half a minute against a rowdy orc.
Yet there are still rules for throwing meteors or riding a dragon. Why?
Because not unlike Middle Earth, the game assumes that the players portray some very exceptional characters.

So if the Returning-King-of-Gondor must curse ten-thousand men as part of the story, then he would do so.
And if the heroic protagonist Dwarf needs to forge a mighty magic weapon on the long lost anvil of his forefathers, than he likely will.
And a Wizard who needs to return to the living after his mortal shell was dragged down to and burned in the pits of the Abyss, might just be able to pull it off.

The very fact that his people thought that these things are mere legends of the past will only put the deed into the right perspective.

It wouldn't serve the Tolkien feel either, if the Hero's Group is made up of just another average Gondor-Knight or Elven Archer, who doesn't go far beyond the wildest expectations.

 

[Zweischneid's Wrath]

Oh yeah, and i want to clear something up. From some of my posts it may seem like i do not like LOTR, but i actually love LOTR. Although i believe that the d20 system is poorly suited to running a LOTR style game, or a generic high fantasy low magic game. And from what i have heard MERP was just like playing D&D in Middle-Earth.

Either way, I am still wondering who came up with the notion, that Middle Earth is a "low magic" setting.

Just from the fly, you have talking eagles, ryhming spiders, walking trees and seeing stones.
Undead Wraith-Kings and Armies of Ghosts.
Petrified Trolls and gem-encrusted Dragons.
Shapeshifters and Immortals, Prophecies that are thousands of years old and Kings that heal with a lay of their hands.
Elves who forsake eternal youth and riddles that decide on the fate of men.
Rumors of Werewolfs and Spiders large as a house.
Sunken Empires, magic swords and cursed rings.
Mountains with more tunnels than any Anthill, all infested by orcs and goblins who fear the rays of the sun.
Demons of shadow and flame and trees that shed silver and golden light.
Horses that run faster than the wind and thin, silk-like chainshirts of mithril that protect from the mightiest blows.
Doorways that appear only by Moonlight and Ships that sail to the very home of the Gods.


I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Middle Earth doesn't feature any "less" magic than Dragonlance or Greyhawk. It just makes a better effort to actually let it appear magical and not mundane (usually giving even less explanation for its very exsistance than the D&D Settings). And thats something that doesn't come with the system, but the effort you as player and DM put into it.

 

[Hjorimir]

I would argue that ME is low magic in the traditional D&D sense. Take Gimli, for example. What level do you think he is? How many magic items does he own? How much wealth does the DMG suggest for a character of that level?

But one of the reasons I love ME so much is BECAUSE of its low magic. Having lower levels of magic and being far more rare than say...oh...Forgotten Realms, keeps magic special. It enhances the wonder of it all.

Yes, ME has all those things. But that stack of magic you listed is smaller than the amount of personal magic items Elminster has in his lil'shack in Shadowvale.

 

[WizarDru]

Ok, but lets be honest. Even though magic is fading, most players will want to (and should) be the exception to the rule.

That's not really at question. The thing is, exceptional in Middle Earth and exceptional in the Forgotten Realms are two entirely different things. Magic in Middle Earth, in any occurence, is rare and startling. Magic in the Realms is commonplace and the stuff of daily commerce. There are no adventurers guilds in Middle Earth, thought there is plenty of adventure to be had.

I mean even in the Forgotten Realms the vast majority of the people are simply commoners who never left their village and wouldn't stand half a minute against a rowdy orc.

Heh. You're obviously not up on one of the biggest criticisms of the Realms, then (whether said criticism is fair or unfair is left as an exercise to the reader).

So if the Returning-King-of-Gondor must curse ten-thousand men as part of the story, then he would do so.

Right, but see...here's the thing. He can't, and that's the point I was making. Isildur was a King of Gondor at the close of the Second Age, having the blood of Numenor in his veins and the Gift of Men, capable of fantastic things that even Aragorn, greatest of Men at the close of the Third Age, could not come close to accomplishing.

And if the heroic protagonist Dwarf needs to forge a mighty magic weapon on the long lost anvil of his forefathers, than he likely will.
And a Wizard who needs to return to the living after his mortal shell was dragged down to and burned in the pits of the Abyss, might just be able to pull it off.

Not if he's planning on playing in the Third Age or acting as any but one of the five Istari, he's not.

It wouldn't serve the Tolkien feel either, if the Hero's Group is made up of just another average Gondor-Knight or Elven Archer, who doesn't go far beyond the wildest expectations.

I really suggest you go to the ME d20 site and click on the 'Campaign' link. You'll soon see that there are many places where a campaign could be set that would allow you to even interact with characters from the books, be exciting, and still not violate the integrity of the stories.

Part of the point of Tolkien's work, IMHO, is that great heroes show themselves by the nature of their character. Aragorn is not the greatest of Men in the Third Age for his skill with a sword (and it is arguable that Boromir isn't his equal, for example), but for his skills, his leadership and his humanity. Let's remember, four of the central characters of the LotR are simple Hobbit aristocrats and commoners, hardly equipped to engage in the wars of Men and Elves. But that hobbit commoner engages in deadly battle against one of the last remaining children of Ungoliant, the horrific Shelob, and WINS. I would argue that Sam's victory over Shelob is more heroic than Legolas slaying a bunch of orcs, any day of the week.

I mean, you can have the dwarven smith go out and forge a magic weapon or have a powerful wizard waltzing around a campaign based on ME....but it would just be window dressing, to me. If it doesn't simulate the feel and conditions of Tolkien's Middle Earth, then it's just another collection of names, places and monsters like any other typical D&D setting...and not really like Middle Earth at all.

 

[teitan]

isn't Midnight essentially LOTR????

Jason

 

[WizarDru]

isn't Midnight essentially LOTR????

Jason

Not quite....but it's darned close. Take Middle Earth, scratch off the serial numbers and let Sauron win the War of the Ring, and you're pretty close. The biggest difference is that Midnight is all about struggling against Evil, after Evil has already won. You can't destroy Izrador, but you can keep hope alive, so that maybe, someday, someone will come who can make things better.

But from the standpoint of magic, combat and world setting, it feels very close (but that little difference is HUGE).

 

[med stud]

But that hobbit commoner engages in deadly battle against one of the last remaining children of Ungoliant, the horrific Shelob, and WINS. I would argue that Sam's victory over Shelob is more heroic than Legolas slaying a bunch of orcs, any day of the week.

(I agree with the rest of your post as well)

This is the reason that I would use Riddle of steel to play in ME if I ever got that idea. Protagonists doing "the right thing" will generally succeed just because they are doing the right thing, not because of ten levels of fighter etc. That and the fact that I wouldnt have to come up with a magic system from scratch for a d20 system.

(Note that my reasoning of Riddle of steel vs d20 only applies to this specific example; there are campaigns that d20 is superior system for, but this IMO is not one of them)

 

[Felon]

Good thread. Thanks for the posts WizarDru, Z Wrath.

D20 certainly has the potential to serve as the basis for a LotR setting. The fundamentals of the D20--skills, feats, races, & character classes--all work well enough. But using D&D's core classes and magic system for a classical heroic fantasy setting amountes to trying to jam a sqare peg into a round hole. I've seen numerous attempts to convert D&D into something suitable for "low magic" campaigns, and they usually consist of imposing various handicaps on spellcasters, such as restricted spell lists (no "flashy" spells) and limited spell advancement (no spells above 4th level). More often than not, these conversions wind up losing sight of the fact that classes need some sort of role in the party to make them meaningful. Once you've watered-down a core class so that they don't fill out the roles that they had been designed for (healing, artillery, etc.), without adding any new capabilities that offer them a new niche, they just aren't fun to play. A LotR campaign definitely needs classes and a magic system that fits the world, rather than just a half-baked D&D kludge.

The powers Gandalf used to fend off the balrog and drive off the ring wraiths weren't lightweight, but it does beg the question of why Gandalf resorted to strength of arms to kill off droves of orcs. In LotR, it seems that "spells" (if for lack of a better word) aren't things that you casually expend to boom-blast a few goblins that are hassling you. Perhaps those magicks can only be called upon to combat creatures of magic? That suggests a possible role for spellcasting classes. While warriors fight off creatures of flesh and bone, magicians wield spells to provide a defense against the supernatural.

 

[WizarDru]

Good thread. Thanks for the posts WizarDru, Z Wrath.

D20 certainly has the potential to serve as the basis for a LotR setting. The fundamentals of the D20--skills, feats, races, & character classes--all work well enough. But using D&D's core classes and magic system for a classical heroic fantasy setting amountes to trying to jam a sqare peg into a round hole.

I agree completely. I believe that you CAN do Middle Earth in d20...but by no means do I think it's the BEST place to do it. D&D's base setting assumes something like Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser or Conan much more than it does LotR. LotR was an influence on D&D...the mistake many folks make is to assume it's the only influence. D&D makes many base assumptions about characters and play that quite simply don't work for a setting like Middle Earth, and ultimately it comes down to the DM to do a ton of work for adaption, and it still depends on the DM to compensate for D&D's inherent base assumptions.

I'll defintely need to check out Riddle of Steel, based on the discussion here.