An Incredible Sacrifice!

[Stone Angel]

The Saint in my epic game was a known womanizer and charming rouge, but when he got a servant wench pregnant he castrated himself and raised the child on his own. Furthermore turning down his lascivious ways, showing great personal sacrifice. What are the examples of historical saints? Research time.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The Saint in my epic game was a known womanizer and charming rouge, but when he got a servant wench pregnant he castrated himself and raised the child on his own. Furthermore turning down his lascivious ways, showing great personal sacrifice. What are the examples of historical saints? Research time.

Interesting. As a DM I'd have had his god demand that he not castrate himself. Castration removes the temptation, and the ability to succumb to that temptation. Taking a Vow of Celibacy, while still being very much capable of breaking said vow, is the true trial, IMO.

Actually if you think of Rage as taping into a spiritual power source within (sort of like Ki for a Monk) then their is no reason why rage should not be calm - intensely focussed and beyond outside distraction - but calm nonetheless

Not all rages need be frothing-at-the-mouth, gurgling, blood-frenzies

I agree that outwardly a rage can seem calm. It doesn't have to be accompanied by bellowing or frothing, as you mentioned.

But "calm rage" is an oxymoron as far as I understand it. "Quiet rage"? Sure. But not calm. Rage is a flood of anger so powerful your entire body tenses up with it. Your mind is consumed by it, making it difficult to think clearly.

Calm is serenity. Which is the antithesis of rage.

Giving up Rage is entirely too much of a sacrifice. Remember, Sainthood doesn't require the loss of class abilities. It'd say so if it did.

I'd go with something like voluntarily subjecting yourself to torture and abuse to save another (like, say, trading yourself to the LE Baron to save an innocent shepherd girl).

I don't think giving up Rage is too much of a sacrifice. The Saint template is broken good at +2 LA. I might not require it were I the DM in question, but it's not a crazy idea.

As far as your "trading yourself" idea, it depends. I could definitely see it working, were the campaign...adult...in certain ways. That'd be one heck of a sacrifice, indeed.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

I know that in the Quintessential Paladin there is a PrC that have a Righteous Zeal - stat-wise, it operates exactly like rage, but it comes from a different source and has a different motivation (dealing punishment to those that have offened your God/Code/Whatever you want to call it)... it is not just frothing and such, it is ... well ... Righteous.

However, I agree with Lord Pendragon... the Saint template is really powerful... giving up rage altogether is not too much of a sacrifice... however, if you feel that it is, I think that putting stipulations on it and making it a Righteous Zeal type of thing... so, you cannot "Zeal" unless a very specific X and Y have occured.

*shrugs* But, replacement like that may not be enough.

 

[drnuncheon]

Giving up Rage is entirely too much of a sacrifice.

It's good you think that. Most people should. Otherwise the world would be full of saints.

Getting tortured or beat on? That's not a sacrifice if there's no lasting effect. As an adventurer, he pretty much seeks that sort of thing out.

Now, if he were tortured to the point where he was crippled (in such a way that a simple spell could not restore him), that would be a sacrifice. If he swore an oath to never again use a bladed weapon, that would be a sacrifice - at least for a barbarian.

The whole key point is 'sacrifice'. It should hurt. It should make him question if he wants to do it. It should, in short, be the most difficult decision of that character's life. He has to show that following the will of his deity (or ethos, or whatever else bestows the sainthood on him) is more important to him than literally anything else in the world.

Anything less, and you're cheating the player, the character, and the entire concept.

J

 

[Amaroq]

You mention that to your character duty and honor are part of him so it is no sacrifice to do those things ... but what if those very things ARE what you must sacrifice.

What would happen to your character if they were duty and honor bound to guard against a great evil, but their true love, or their best friends needed him to lift just a single finger.

However by lifting that finger you go against your duty and honor. It seems to be the most important aspect of your character.

This is the path that appeals to me, out of the suggestions you've gotten so far. I'd say, 'run with it'.

Work with the DM to determine which things would be true sacrifices IN CHARACTER. Give him the 'keys' to your character, as it were.

Let him set up a terrible moral dilemna for the character: down one path lies sainthood... and possibly, down the other path lies a quest for atonement. Either way, you've got great story hooks in place.

One of my favorite adventures, our DM set up exactly like that, presenting a great dilemna to my character, with great 'good' and great 'evil' present in both paths. Even better, he gave my boon companions (our party) different takes on how their personal diety would interpret the dilemna, and so I got great (and conflicting!) advice towards both paths. We spent almost the entire session 'in character', without combat, discussing the dilemna, and well aware that many fates hung on the outcome.

 

[Sejs]

As others have said - if it doesn't hurt to give it up, it's not a sacrifice. Going out and doing something isn't a sacrifice. Disarming a thousand thayvian knights isn't a sacrifice, because you're not giving up anything.

To be a sacrifice you have to give of yourself willingly, despite the cost it incurs, and in this case that cost has to be particularly harsh.


You're a barbarian huh? How about this? You may never kill again. Period. Things that arn't alive, such as undead, constructs, objects and the like are okay - but you may never take another life for any reason. Though you are a champion of righteous battle, you must also lift yourself up and become a paragon of mercy if you are to become a saint.

 

[Romnipotent]

Righteous Wrath- yes, thats the feat.. all about being a champ it is...

As for the 1000 swords, its a vauge japanese movie reference. He thought he would ascend or something if he got 1000 swords, and 1000 heads.

Subduing Strike... it could work... except I fly off the handle at anything evi, taking it out ever so ruthlessly... but i guess thats sacrifice... The thing you dont want to lose.

Rage is too big a thing to give up... just perfect...

 

[Sejs]

As for the 1000 swords, its a vauge japanese movie reference. He thought he would ascend or something if he got 1000 swords, and 1000 heads.

Heh, reminds me of Manji from Blade of the Immortal. He didn't have to collect swords, so much as he had to kill one thousand truly evil men. And rather than ascent, his reward was that he would get to die.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Getting tortured or beat on? That's not a sacrifice if there's no lasting effect.

...so, where, in the description of the Saint in the back of BoED, does it say that he's given up a class ability or have a permanent disability?

It's perfectly acceptable to have a role-playing explanation, or one that doesn't do permanent damage to the character.

As an adventurer, he pretty much seeks that sort of thing out.

Only if he's a masochist, and then he's not Exalted. There's a difference between going and seeking out adventure and volunteering to be tortured in the place of another.

Brad

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I willed I was hung
On the wind-tossed tree
All of nine nights
Wounded by spear
Sacred to Odin
Sacrifying myself to myself
No horn they held up
Nor bread I knew
I looked below me
I cried aloud
I caught up the runes
Caught them wailing
And fell to the ground again
Screaming

Odin

Even the Gods made lasting sacrifices for what they gained, in the case of Odin his eye was given up as well...

The Auld Grump