D&D General an observed and slightly different alignment problem

[Hriston]

describe the lords of law in more detail?

Lords of Law

 

[jgsugden]

Tying an entire plane to an alignment is pretty lazy design overall. It doesn't make sense to force an entire plane to work on alignment. Instead, I have the planes serve an actual purpose and then see how the residents fit into that plan.

The result is a simplified cosmology and far less perfunctory design elements.

 

[Yaarel]

The purpose of alignment is to serve as useful tool for roleplay.

If the definitions of Law and Chaos result in "Lawful Stupid" behavior (Paladin) and "Chaotic Stupid" behavior (disruptive player), the alignment system has failed within the context of a roleplaying gaming.

 

[Mecheon]

Scary toads dont make much sense. They tried to give them some weird reproduction mechanism to make them more ''chaotic'' but they still feel pretty uninspired and tacked-on.

I've been a bit softer on Slaad ever since someone pointed out the Egyptian Ogdoad, an ancient set of creator deities who were forgotten and re-discovered during the time of ancient Egypt, have frog heads. Also snake heads for some

Also I do dig their 4E version being "Hey, they're eating the law and structure of the multiverse to try and bring it back to its chaotic predecessor". Which in this day and age would be.... The First World

now if they could actually be written as chaotic and not just 'yeah they're just chaotic evil but sometimes they wander off rather than fight' it'd help things. Or if they'd give them appropriate powers for Chaotic Shennanigans rather than keeping to their old stuff

Mechanus, on the other hand, I just role as "The gears that keep the universe running, the gears are literately physical incartations of rules like gravity"

 

[MarkB]

and why is chaos scary toads?

Chaos is troublesome to stat. Really, each chaos-creature should be unique and utterly different from the next, perhaps even volatile and ever-changing in its nature - but that makes for a very large monster manual, so they settled for toads.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Tying an entire plane to an alignment is pretty lazy design overall. It doesn't make sense to force an entire plane to work on alignment. Instead, I have the planes serve an actual purpose and then see how the residents fit into that plan.

The result is a simplified cosmology and far less perfunctory design elements.

But isn’t that how it’s set up already?

Hell is all lawful and the abyss is all chaotic? Etc..

I’m not disagreeing with you. Just wondering if you feel the way the planes are set up in D&D is the result of lazy design or if you mean something different.

 

[jgsugden]

But isn’t that how it’s set up already?

Hell is all lawful and the abyss is all chaotic? Etc..

I’m not disagreeing with you. Just wondering if you feel the way the planes are set up in D&D is the result of lazy design or if you mean something different.

I start with the story and don't worry about the labels. When the Great Wheel was designed, they started with the labels and then wrote stories that fit the labels - but those stories were all over the place and lacke inspiration. This is one of the reasons why so much of the Great Wheel sees very little use.

Let me share an example of how I approached the Planar Design.

I don't have a Hell and an Abyss - they're part of the same plane.

Long ago there were only devils - creatures that followed the fallen Angel Asmodeus. They lacked free will and were bound to his service. Then, the Far Realms collided with the Prime Cosmology and shattered it. The point of contact was in the Hells (a singular plane where Asmodeus oversaw the souls of those not allowed into the Heavens - also a singular plane), and there is a rift there - in the center of Hell that has to be protected less it be torn open fully and the nightmare residents of the Far Realm find their way into the Prime Cosmology.

When that collision took place there were several impacts. One of those impacts was the corruption of some Devils into Demons. They were pushed away from the rift by Asmodeus' forces, and 9 regions of Hell were established to protect the rift - Nessus at the center, then 7 more realms in a circular pattern surrounding Nessus, and the circular battlefield of Avernus that encompases those 8 regions. Beyond those realms are the various realms of Demon Lords and other denizens of the Hell Plane. They stretch on and on and create hundreds and hundreds of regions that serve various Powers - but many focus on capturing the rift at the center of Nessus. As time goes by the battlefield of Avernus pushes into Demon controlled terriotory and and more 'land' is stabilized so that it can be pulled out of Avernus and be considered part of the other 7 regions of the 9 Hells.

The 9 Archfiends that control the 9 Hell Regions are all in the service of Asmodeus - although they plot and scheme. Some are clearly tyranical and fit into the idea of LE. Others are less regimented and might be described as CE, NE or LN. However - their followers - the Devils - lack free will and are thus all very lawful.

In the mythology of the world there is debate as to whether Devils are truly evil because they lack free will. Asmodeus argues that everything they do to collect more souls is in service of the fight of the Blood War - and the Ends Justify the Means. He considers the entire operation of the Hells necessary as it is the only way he can accumulate enough resources to continue to fight the Blood War and drive back the Demonic Hordes. It isn't that Asmodeus claims to not be evil - he just has no time for silly labels when there is a war to fight. Of course, Nessus itself if far removed from the front lines - and my Nessus has more in common with the descriptions of Olympus in Lore than is does with the descrition sof Nessus in the books.

This story has a lot of commonalities with the Great Wheel - but the reasons for the structure are very different and tell a very particular story that has been really useful over the 30+ years I've used it. I don't have Heaven Planes and Fiendish Planes there just to fill out a particular spot on the alignment scale - they all have purposes.

 

[Tonguez]

There is nothing "random" about individualism.

individuals are very random, only groups are predictable

of course all individuals exists as groups

 

[CreamCloud0]

individuals are very random, only groups are predictable

of course all individuals exists as groups

If you are trying to claim with this that the chaotic alignment means randomness or being an individual/not part of a group I’m going to have to definitely disagree on those premises.

 

[Voadam]

I've been a bit softer on Slaad ever since someone pointed out the Egyptian Ogdoad, an ancient set of creator deities who were forgotten and re-discovered during the time of ancient Egypt, have frog heads. Also snake heads for some

I came to mention the Ogdoad but you beat me to it.

Eight primordial deities, four pairs with the males having frog heads and the females having snake heads. Thoth is sometimes associated with them/one of them/the leader of them. Some more information here.

Frogs are great animal symbols of change and transformation and so pretty good for Chaos. They go from eggs to pollywogs to tadpoles to frogs changing from floating spheres to swimming with a tail propulsion to limbs to tailless jumping and swimming limbed bodies and going from aquatic to air breathing.

Snakes tie into change with their shedding skins.

The pathfinder version of the Chaos exemplars are snake outsiders.

Eight also ties into Moorcock's Chaos.

Slaad work for me.